Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem



Thanks, GM. The same to you; you are always not only interesting, but courteous; an area I fear that I lack in from time to time.



d I would like to point out that you are, according to Christianity, informed as to the consequences of your acts, and are able to choose between life and death, blessings and cursings.

Another thing I would like to say is that while it is most surely true that sin is detrimental to us, I think that the most important thing to state is that, from the Christian view, it is unhealthy for one's soul (or spirit, depending on which you prefer ). Sin is a cancer, which causes our spirits to sicken, and damages our relationship with God. If left unattended, it could in the end prove to be a fatal cancer.

I feel like there's much more that I want to say, but alas! I am feeling rather illiterate in the English language tonight, and I don't really have the time to sort out my thoughts, so I must bid you "a Dieu".

Thank .you , Gwai- and while I have slipped a few times I can't recall anything that you've posted that hasn't been unfailingly well-mannered and well-argued.

OK, enough of the nice-guy stuff, let's get down

The bit about consequences was just making sure that contingencies were covered- smoking, for example. For many years- hundreds, in fact- the bad effects were simply not known.

[Rían]

OK, I have some time right now to spend on this thread. First, I'll RE-answer this post - I typed in a long answer then the stupid Blaster worm booted me offline before I could hit "submit reply"

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Well, I still don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand, but I have faith that you will be a lamp unto my feet, so okay.

*wonders how to take this...*

In the past I have served as a volunteer teacher in Kenya and Zimbabwe (Rhodesia, as it was at the time), done adult literacy work with native Canadians in northern B.C., and assisted (briefly) at a Cambodian refugee camp in Thailand.

Oh, adult literacy work is great - I have a friend that does that. Do you have a high success rate, or are there often physical problems that prevent the reading? Do you send them off with a Tolkien book when they graduate?
I can't even imagine a refugee camp ... I'm glad you helped out there.

In honesty I have to add that in none of these situations did I set out to do good works; I just happenened to be in the neighborhood when the opportunity arose.

So every time you taught, you just happened to accidently be in the neighborhood? No, I imagine you made a commitment to teach for a period of time. Many people will "happen" upon a chance to serve and run from it. It looks like you chose to stay and help, and I admire you for that.

My wife is a Taiwan aborigine, and their situation is very similar to that of North American natives, Australian aborigines etc.- unemployment, poor education, poverty, alcoholism, domestic violence- so I do work with aborigine children- English teaching mostly, but also outings, coaching (swimming) etc. Hey, a lot of them are my relatives anyway!

It's Sunday, so this afternoon I'll be taking a bunch of kids to the beach; admittedly not that much of a sacrifice when it's 38 degrees C outside

I bet the outing are really, really appreciated! And having a supportive, consistently-there adult around to coach must be an important thing in their lives, when too often the adults are absent, physically or otherwise...

I believe that, while charity deals with an individual level, a lot of our problems are created en masse and can only be dealt with at the political level. ..... So in the case of charitable works,while it may be better to light one candle than curse the darkness, it's always possible that you turn out to be spending your time fixing the leak in the orphanage roof while the dam is about to burst and wash away the whole town.

Oh, I totally agree with you, and am glad that there are people that also deal with the top-level end of things (altho I think it is important to have SOME touch-in point with the actual people involved). Personally, our family tends to work more at the individual people level, plus one level up - the community support level. And if the orphanage roof can be fixed, then the orphans will be more comfortable and healthy while those that are more gifted politically are working on fixing the dam. Also, even if the dam can't be fixed, the individual people that lived under the roof will have been touched by the love of another person.

[Rían]

Not everyone has answered my question about what they, personally, do to relieve suffering (and I didn't expect everyone to answer, BTW...), but I'll go ahead and share several reasons why I asked it. There are several MORE reasons, but I'll keep those for later.....

A big reason I asked it is to get the people involved in this discussion to (hopefully) think about the topic a little more deeply and personally. I think that this question of suffering can become somewhat of an academic question that is just tossed out in anger, or in a reflexive way, when the subject of God and suffering comes up, and it gets to the point where there is no thought involved (and thought is always good, IMO!) And it might even get to the point where people don't even care about possible answers, they just throw out the question in anger. I hope it has stimulated some more thought on the subject, and/or has opened up hearts a little more to be receptive to the discussion.

I also think that asking what people are personally doing to relieve suffering will give some insight into how this topic truly touches their hearts.

And also, I hope that asking this question will encourage people to look at their lives, and how they spend their money, and encourage them to perhaps change the way they use their resources of time and money and give a little to relieve the suffering of their fellow human beings. A little money can go a long way, and a little time can yield great benefits. The benefits go 2 ways, BTW, IMO - the obvious ones are the physical and emotional benefits to the people you are helping, but there are also less tangible but very important benefits to you ...

One of the organizations I support, Children's Hunger Fund (the one where I personally know the founders) has a supplemental food program where for $10 a month, a family's diet is supplemented by non-perishable proteins and other healthy foodstuffs. If someone is currently doing NOTHING time-wise or money-wise to relieve suffering, and isn't even willing to spend $10 a month on something besides their own pleasures, then I doubt that the subject of suffering really affects them at all, other than a handy argument to throw out against God.

[GrayMouser]

*wonders how to take this...*

Just meaning that I put my faith in you having your reasons and that you would eventually tie this back into the topic.

As you did, but I disagree as to the relevance.

The question is still the Problem of Pain- how can you argue that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and benevolent, and still allows suffering to exist.

What anybody personally does about suffering, or why, doesn't have any bearing, as far as I can see.

Is somebody who spends their entire life in prayer, contemplation and worship revealing a lack of caring?

[Rían]

OK, my own personal recent suffering is improving (the dr. clipped off the stiches today on my 3-plus inch incision, and the pathology report came back showing no malignancy - yay!) so if anyone still wants to talk about this, I'm ready to jump in. I'll try to not post while under the influence of the wonderful codeine-based pain killer, or it might get really interesting ...

Originally posted by GrayMouser
[B]Just meaning that I put my faith in you having your reasons and that you would eventually tie this back into the topic.

As you did, but I disagree as to the relevance.

It is certainly relevant to the discussion of the topic, IMHO .

I don't like to post on these types of topics just to admire my own writing - I'm interesting in really digging in and honestly looking at things and thinking them through with other people. And I think that a question like the one I asked will put people in a better mindset to discuss the issue of suffering more openly, because I imagine it made people pull up short and think about how much they do, and perhaps why they don't do more, and things like that.

The question is still the Problem of Pain- how can you argue that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and benevolent, and still allows suffering to exist.

How do you propose that God could have given mankind freedom of choice without the possibility of pain? You know Lewis' argument; what do you have to say against it?

I asked people earlier to come up with ideas as to how God could have arranged things differently. Hobbit came up with something like have God make people be nice. Well, there goes people's freedom! And that's really the only other choice I see - making people robots (MAKE them be nice) or give people freedom with some limited and bounded power of inflicting pain during their lifetime. And the pain involved in a short lifetime is to be set against an eternity of joy in heaven for those that chose it. And just as in Tolkien's writing (mostly in the Sil, but most of you here have read the Sil), God trumps any evil Melkor brings and makes a deeper good.

I really challenge you to come up with another way that God could have arranged things, given the fact that He has decided to give people the incredible gift of bounded, but still vast, personal freedom. I can't see any other way, except to have not created at all; can you?

Now you, of course, have read Lewis, and that's why you didn't offer up Hobbit's solution, but all you did was remove it one level, GM, didn't you, if you think about it.

[Rían]

Hey GrayMouser, I just was checking my PMs and noticed you never read the PM I sent you at the beginning of Sept! You might want to turn on the PM notification option so a window pops up if you have a PM.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...and the pathology report came back showing no malignancy - yay!) ....

Yay!!

[Lizra]

Good news Rian!

[Rían]

thanks, ladies

[Snowdog]

<<Originally posted by RÃ*an:
"...and the pathology report came back showing no malignancy - yay!) ....">>

This is great news RÃ*an!

[Rían]

thanks, Snowdog! Yes, we're very pleased about that

[Finrod Felagund]

Rian, off topic I know, but I just want to let you know how much I respect your knowlege and wisdom of Christianity, and your willingness to be a positive representative of Christians all over the world, right here on entmoot, and helping to lead the other Christian 'mooters.

[Rían]

Wow - I hardly know what to say, that's such a generous complement (and WAAAY more than I've ever deserved) - thank you very much, and I'm so glad our God is such an awesome God and for all the wonderful ways He's helped change my life for the better (altho I have a HUGE way to go - please pray for me for more patience!) He has used suffering in my life to work very deep things, and the good He achieves thru the suffering is always much, much deeper than the suffering. And He's with me all the way.

That's one of the things that sets Christianity apart, IMO - God is alive and well and right there in the hearts of those who love Him and have asked Him in, and is an ever-present help in need. Christianity is NOT just a set of rules - it's a relationship with the awesome and beautiful Creator of the universe. And when you set your own personal suffering against an eternity of joy in His presence, and you can see that the suffering that He carefully allows into our lives works such deep things in our character, then suffering becomes more bearable (altho it's never fun, is it? But there are better things than fun; joy being one of them). You can see that He is like a surgeon in the way He uses pain - it may hurt for a bit, but it saves you from something truly horrible.

Anyway, as far as the topic of suffering in general, two things are glaringly obvious - (1) there are people on earth , and (2) these people experience suffering, among other things . Now how can this be reconciled with the idea expressed in the Bible that God is all-powerful and all-good and all-knowing? I think it can; and altho we may never know every detail of every answer, I think that Christianity answers MORE and BETTER than any other religion or philosophy.

To begin with, no one seems to have come up with a way for the universe to exist, containing people that have free will, in such a way as to exclude suffering; am I right? The best option was something like have God make people be nice, but that removes their free will, doesn't it, so that won't work.

[Millane]

ahhh i was hoping this wouldnt sound off topic but it sort of seems relevant now that i have seen free will mentioned a few times.
Today our philosophy class was talking about the idea that free will existed and theoretically if we know every single physical detail ever (down to the last atom) we could predict how a being would behave, and thus take out the idea of a spiritual mind.
This lead onto God knowing what we will be doing say 10 years from now. If God knows at this moment what choices you will make does free will exist. I beleive that it wouldnt because your path would be layed before you and it would break down to God wouldnt know your choices or there would be no free will. the class was split pretty evenly on this matter and i was just wondering if anyone else had a view on this...

[GrayMouser]

Now you, of course, have read Lewis, and that's why you didn't offer up Hobbit's solution, but all you did was remove it one level, GM, didn't you, if you think about it.

All kudos to Lewis, but there are other people who have thought about this- I didn't read PoP until a few months back (much to my astonishment - I would have sworn I'd read it years ago.)

I think Job is the biggie, followed by Ecclesiastes- not to mention St. Augustine, Pascal, Kierkegaard and - my fav- Dosteovski.

Question - Before the Fall, if Adam had stubbed his toe, would it have hurt?

I want to first highlight the distinction between Natural Pain and Human Pain caused by free will.

Simple question- is it possible to conceive of a world without AIDS?

Obviously, yes- think back twenty or thirty years.So why is there AIDS? It's not a necessary component of existence. It is contingent. There could be AIDS, or there could be no AIDS.

Since no human agent decided on a point of free will that there should be AIDS, God must have allowed it to happen at this particular time, in this particular place, and in this particular form: i.e. it is transmitted by bodily fluids, it can be transmitted through the womb, and it takes a long time to show symptoms; all of which tend to result in the death of 'innocent' people.

So why AIDS? Not why pain, not why resistance to material things, but specifically why did God decide to unleash AIDS at this point?

[Finrod Felagund]

I don't believe God sees ahead in time, he doesn't need to, because he is outside of time. But it is a very interesting topic, free will and predestination.

[GrayMouser]

But, if God is outside of time he sees all that happens in time- just as if I look at a ruler, I can see three comes after two, even though I'm not in the ruler following the sequence.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Millane
Today our philosophy class was talking about the idea that free will existed and theoretically if we know every single physical detail ever (down to the last atom) we could predict how a being would behave

we can kind of do this now with a quantum approach. and in so much as everything that goes on on earth and in this universe is essentially a chemical reaction yes technically it could all be put into numbers or at least under a quantum lense and mapped. "free will" is just part of the big equation. but life is no chess game. the level of complexity we are talking about is currently WAYYYY beyond us. but hey maybe god is that good a mathmatician. and can process probabilities exponentially better then all the computers combined. then we could get somewhere....

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
So why AIDS? Not why pain, not why resistance to material things, but specifically why did God decide to unleash AIDS at this point?

Not having received any revelation from the Lord on that particular event, I cannot answer. It is by no means unheard of that God sends plagues (see 2 Samuel, chapter 24). This definitely doesn't mean that any sickness that happens is his will. At the end of one healing, he said that Satan had bound the woman, and he had released her.

I would say that the plagues God has caused are just. Not nearly all of the sicknesses or plagues which are going on now, though, are within his will. Let us look at the character of Jesus Christ, who is God.

When Jesus became incarnate, he came as a healer, as was prophesied through the prophets. "Then will the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy!"

In the huge revival in Indonesia that took place in 1960 or 1970 (I don't remember which) the huge waves of miraculous healings nearly put the hospitals out of business.


I believe that diseases like AIDS are still being used by God for good purposes. What they are, I don't know. But from what we can see of his character, I think I can put my trust in him. Job was a good reference. He could not understand why God had brought those terrible disasters upon him in this life. It was not God either, technically, but was actually the devil. God had power over what the devil did, and used Job's suffering for good purposes. In the end, even in this life, he was blessed hugely after his great trial.


So anyway, my main points in answer to your question are these: We cannot know all of God's designs here on Earth. He doesn't always cause the disease. He can use the disease for good.

[GrayMouser]

From Lief Erikson

In the huge revival in Indonesia that took place in 1960 or 1970 (I don't remember which) the huge waves of miraculous healings nearly put the hospitals out of business

Umm... given that the country is 90% Muslim, either that was an Islamic revival or for some reason only Christians (8%) get sick in Indonesia.