08-25-2003, 03:04 AM | #1961 | |
Elf Lord
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OK, enough of the nice-guy stuff, let's get down The bit about consequences was just making sure that contingencies were covered- smoking, for example. For many years- hundreds, in fact- the bad effects were simply not known.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-26-2003, 02:27 PM | #1962 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, I have some time right now to spend on this thread. First, I'll RE-answer this post - I typed in a long answer then the stupid Blaster worm booted me offline before I could hit "submit reply"
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I can't even imagine a refugee camp ... I'm glad you helped out there. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-26-2003, 02:51 PM | #1963 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Not everyone has answered my question about what they, personally, do to relieve suffering (and I didn't expect everyone to answer, BTW...), but I'll go ahead and share several reasons why I asked it. There are several MORE reasons, but I'll keep those for later.....
A big reason I asked it is to get the people involved in this discussion to (hopefully) think about the topic a little more deeply and personally. I think that this question of suffering can become somewhat of an academic question that is just tossed out in anger, or in a reflexive way, when the subject of God and suffering comes up, and it gets to the point where there is no thought involved (and thought is always good, IMO!) And it might even get to the point where people don't even care about possible answers, they just throw out the question in anger. I hope it has stimulated some more thought on the subject, and/or has opened up hearts a little more to be receptive to the discussion. I also think that asking what people are personally doing to relieve suffering will give some insight into how this topic truly touches their hearts. And also, I hope that asking this question will encourage people to look at their lives, and how they spend their money, and encourage them to perhaps change the way they use their resources of time and money and give a little to relieve the suffering of their fellow human beings. A little money can go a long way, and a little time can yield great benefits. The benefits go 2 ways, BTW, IMO - the obvious ones are the physical and emotional benefits to the people you are helping, but there are also less tangible but very important benefits to you ... One of the organizations I support, Children's Hunger Fund (the one where I personally know the founders) has a supplemental food program where for $10 a month, a family's diet is supplemented by non-perishable proteins and other healthy foodstuffs. If someone is currently doing NOTHING time-wise or money-wise to relieve suffering, and isn't even willing to spend $10 a month on something besides their own pleasures, then I doubt that the subject of suffering really affects them at all, other than a handy argument to throw out against God.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-27-2003, 12:28 AM | #1964 | |
Elf Lord
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As you did, but I disagree as to the relevance. The question is still the Problem of Pain- how can you argue that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and benevolent, and still allows suffering to exist. What anybody personally does about suffering, or why, doesn't have any bearing, as far as I can see. Is somebody who spends their entire life in prayer, contemplation and worship revealing a lack of caring?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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09-06-2003, 02:07 AM | #1965 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, my own personal recent suffering is improving (the dr. clipped off the stiches today on my 3-plus inch incision, and the pathology report came back showing no malignancy - yay!) so if anyone still wants to talk about this, I'm ready to jump in. I'll try to not post while under the influence of the wonderful codeine-based pain killer, or it might get really interesting ...
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I don't like to post on these types of topics just to admire my own writing - I'm interesting in really digging in and honestly looking at things and thinking them through with other people. And I think that a question like the one I asked will put people in a better mindset to discuss the issue of suffering more openly, because I imagine it made people pull up short and think about how much they do, and perhaps why they don't do more, and things like that. Quote:
I asked people earlier to come up with ideas as to how God could have arranged things differently. Hobbit came up with something like have God make people be nice. Well, there goes people's freedom! And that's really the only other choice I see - making people robots (MAKE them be nice) or give people freedom with some limited and bounded power of inflicting pain during their lifetime. And the pain involved in a short lifetime is to be set against an eternity of joy in heaven for those that chose it. And just as in Tolkien's writing (mostly in the Sil, but most of you here have read the Sil), God trumps any evil Melkor brings and makes a deeper good. I really challenge you to come up with another way that God could have arranged things, given the fact that He has decided to give people the incredible gift of bounded, but still vast, personal freedom. I can't see any other way, except to have not created at all; can you? Now you, of course, have read Lewis, and that's why you didn't offer up Hobbit's solution, but all you did was remove it one level, GM, didn't you, if you think about it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-06-2003 at 02:14 AM. |
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09-06-2003, 02:24 AM | #1966 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey GrayMouser, I just was checking my PMs and noticed you never read the PM I sent you at the beginning of Sept! You might want to turn on the PM notification option so a window pops up if you have a PM.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-06-2003, 06:21 AM | #1967 | |
Banned
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09-06-2003, 08:49 AM | #1968 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Good news Rian!
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09-07-2003, 01:09 AM | #1969 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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thanks, ladies
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-09-2003, 09:18 AM | #1970 |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
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<<Originally posted by RÃ*an:
"...and the pathology report came back showing no malignancy - yay!) ....">> This is great news RÃ*an!
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09-10-2003, 12:56 PM | #1971 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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thanks, Snowdog! Yes, we're very pleased about that
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-10-2003, 01:13 PM | #1972 |
King of Nargothrond
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Rian, off topic I know, but I just want to let you know how much I respect your knowlege and wisdom of Christianity, and your willingness to be a positive representative of Christians all over the world, right here on entmoot, and helping to lead the other Christian 'mooters.
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"THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" |
09-10-2003, 04:14 PM | #1973 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Wow - I hardly know what to say, that's such a generous complement (and WAAAY more than I've ever deserved) - thank you very much, and I'm so glad our God is such an awesome God and for all the wonderful ways He's helped change my life for the better (altho I have a HUGE way to go - please pray for me for more patience!) He has used suffering in my life to work very deep things, and the good He achieves thru the suffering is always much, much deeper than the suffering. And He's with me all the way.
That's one of the things that sets Christianity apart, IMO - God is alive and well and right there in the hearts of those who love Him and have asked Him in, and is an ever-present help in need. Christianity is NOT just a set of rules - it's a relationship with the awesome and beautiful Creator of the universe. And when you set your own personal suffering against an eternity of joy in His presence, and you can see that the suffering that He carefully allows into our lives works such deep things in our character, then suffering becomes more bearable (altho it's never fun, is it? But there are better things than fun; joy being one of them). You can see that He is like a surgeon in the way He uses pain - it may hurt for a bit, but it saves you from something truly horrible. Anyway, as far as the topic of suffering in general, two things are glaringly obvious - (1) there are people on earth , and (2) these people experience suffering, among other things . Now how can this be reconciled with the idea expressed in the Bible that God is all-powerful and all-good and all-knowing? I think it can; and altho we may never know every detail of every answer, I think that Christianity answers MORE and BETTER than any other religion or philosophy. To begin with, no one seems to have come up with a way for the universe to exist, containing people that have free will, in such a way as to exclude suffering; am I right? The best option was something like have God make people be nice, but that removes their free will, doesn't it, so that won't work.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-10-2003 at 04:15 PM. |
09-11-2003, 06:20 AM | #1974 |
The Dude
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ahhh i was hoping this wouldnt sound off topic but it sort of seems relevant now that i have seen free will mentioned a few times.
Today our philosophy class was talking about the idea that free will existed and theoretically if we know every single physical detail ever (down to the last atom) we could predict how a being would behave, and thus take out the idea of a spiritual mind. This lead onto God knowing what we will be doing say 10 years from now. If God knows at this moment what choices you will make does free will exist. I beleive that it wouldnt because your path would be layed before you and it would break down to God wouldnt know your choices or there would be no free will. the class was split pretty evenly on this matter and i was just wondering if anyone else had a view on this...
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09-11-2003, 11:12 AM | #1975 | |
Elf Lord
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I think Job is the biggie, followed by Ecclesiastes- not to mention St. Augustine, Pascal, Kierkegaard and - my fav- Dosteovski. Question - Before the Fall, if Adam had stubbed his toe, would it have hurt? I want to first highlight the distinction between Natural Pain and Human Pain caused by free will. Simple question- is it possible to conceive of a world without AIDS? Obviously, yes- think back twenty or thirty years.So why is there AIDS? It's not a necessary component of existence. It is contingent. There could be AIDS, or there could be no AIDS. Since no human agent decided on a point of free will that there should be AIDS, God must have allowed it to happen at this particular time, in this particular place, and in this particular form: i.e. it is transmitted by bodily fluids, it can be transmitted through the womb, and it takes a long time to show symptoms; all of which tend to result in the death of 'innocent' people. So why AIDS? Not why pain, not why resistance to material things, but specifically why did God decide to unleash AIDS at this point?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 09-11-2003 at 11:13 AM. |
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09-11-2003, 12:29 PM | #1976 |
King of Nargothrond
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I don't believe God sees ahead in time, he doesn't need to, because he is outside of time. But it is a very interesting topic, free will and predestination.
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"THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" |
09-11-2003, 12:49 PM | #1977 |
Elf Lord
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But, if God is outside of time he sees all that happens in time- just as if I look at a ruler, I can see three comes after two, even though I'm not in the ruler following the sequence.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-11-2003, 01:42 PM | #1978 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-13-2003, 01:13 PM | #1979 | |
Elf Lord
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I would say that the plagues God has caused are just. Not nearly all of the sicknesses or plagues which are going on now, though, are within his will. Let us look at the character of Jesus Christ, who is God. When Jesus became incarnate, he came as a healer, as was prophesied through the prophets. "Then will the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy!" In the huge revival in Indonesia that took place in 1960 or 1970 (I don't remember which) the huge waves of miraculous healings nearly put the hospitals out of business. I believe that diseases like AIDS are still being used by God for good purposes. What they are, I don't know. But from what we can see of his character, I think I can put my trust in him. Job was a good reference. He could not understand why God had brought those terrible disasters upon him in this life. It was not God either, technically, but was actually the devil. God had power over what the devil did, and used Job's suffering for good purposes. In the end, even in this life, he was blessed hugely after his great trial. So anyway, my main points in answer to your question are these: We cannot know all of God's designs here on Earth. He doesn't always cause the disease. He can use the disease for good. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-13-2003 at 01:22 PM. |
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09-14-2003, 11:22 AM | #1980 | |
Elf Lord
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From Lief Erikson
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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