Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[GrayMouser]

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6: 1-4

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Oh GM Dietary laws in the OT were for either very good health reasons, that I know of, or to illustrate a principle. They were revoked, as I'm sure you know (am I right that you know this?), in the NT.

Yes, I know that. I'm just not sure of the theological reasoning which says that the sacrifice of the Son of God in atonement for our sins means that it becomes healthy in first century Palestine to eat pork chops and lobsters.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 1 - How do YOU think God should have made people and the world? Please really, really think about it and provide some working details - don't just say "He should make everyone happy!" That type of comment won't get us very far.
[/B]

We can think he could have done a better world, an hypothetical "perfect world". But when we try to identify the features of that world we make it with our limited mind and so make it less perfect than it really is.

I mean that we can think about a world more "harmonic", but not more perfect, because the perfection of the real world is that it's founded on our freedom. To create freedom is something above our thought.

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Matthew 6: 1-4

GrayMouser - Getting praise from you guys was the FARTHEST thing from my mind when I posted some of the things our family does. Did you REALLY think that, GrayMouser? I would hope that you know me better by now, and can see that it relates to the topic we're discussing, and the only reason I answered was that I didn't want to pose a question that I wouldn't answer myself. I hestitated about answering it, and perhaps less detail would have been good, but I really wanted to show the relational aspect of some of the things, because I think that's important.

To even things out a bit, in case it DID come off like I was bragging, let me fill you guys in on some of my worse qualities - I'm very selfish and self-centered. I can very often be greedy, vain, bully-ish, lazy, and happy to see (small) bad things that happen to people I'm not fond of. I too often lose my temper and speak angrily to those in my family (I typically don't snap at Entmooters because I can always stay away from the computer if I'm crabby). I take too much time for my own enjoyments and don't spend enough time with my kids. And that's just a small list I have no delusions of my own perfection - I see only too well how imperfect I am, and it makes me sick.

That's why it's so amazing to me that God loves even me, and sent His Son to pay the price/penalty of my sins and restore me to a relationship with God, because I never could have paid the price myself.

I also see, however, that with God's grace and help, that I have made improvements in these areas. But I still have a HUGE way to go, and I'm sure there's awful things in me that I don't even see yet that are glaringly obvious to others.

I'm sorry if it came off as "blowing my own trumpet", because that was NOT AT ALL what I intended. I don't want to tell why I'm asking that particular question now, but I would still like to see it answered by those that wish to talk about the subject of suffering.

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Yes, I know that. I'm just not sure of the theological reasoning which says that the sacrifice of the Son of God in atonement for our sins means that it becomes healthy in first century Palestine to eat pork chops and lobsters.

I think the lobsters and pork chops were not in the illustrative category

[Rían]

HOBBIT- I'm sorry, I was so tired last night when I posted that I didn't word my response to you correctly. I went back and edited it, and I'll repeat it here - what I wanted to ask you to expand on was:

But how do you suggest that God get people to be nicer?

IOW, any thoughts on how people/creation could be different to achieve this goal?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Fat middle
We can think he could have done a better world, an hypothetical "perfect world". But when we try to identify the features of that world we make it with our limited mind and so make it less perfect than it really is.

I mean that we can think about a world more "harmonic", but not more perfect, because the perfection of the real world is that it's founded on our freedom. To create freedom is something above our thought.

Good thoughts, Gato Gordito. I would add that it's also the sorrow of the real world that it's founded on our freedom. But it's also the beauty. Sounds rather Tolkien-ish, doesn't it?

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
GrayMouser - Getting praise from you guys was the FARTHEST thing from my mind when I posted some of the things our family does. Did you REALLY think that, GrayMouser? I would hope that you know me better by now, and can see that it relates to the topic we're discussing, and the only reason I answered was that I didn't want to pose a question that I wouldn't answer myself. I hestitated about answering it, and perhaps less detail would have been good, but I really wanted to show the relational aspect of some of the things, because I think that's important.

Sorry, Rian, I should have put a smiley on that- I meant it to come across as gentle teasing. I am sure that you are very sincere in what you do, and actually make considerable personal sacrifice to do it.

I'm sorry if it came off as "blowing my own trumpet", because that was NOT AT ALL what I intended. I don't want to tell why I'm asking that particular question now, but I would still like to see it answered by those that wish to talk about the subject of suffering.

I still can't see the relevance of that to the subject under discussion, and until I do I'm going to hold back.

IIRC, you posted this info once before, and if the question is whether Christians are more charitable than non-Christians, or more than other religions, or even whether religious types in general act more charitably than the non-religious, no problem- but that is a different topic. Is that what you are meaning?

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Fat middle
We can think he could have done a better world, an hypothetical "perfect world". But when we try to identify the features of that world we make it with our limited mind and so make it less perfect than it really is.

I mean that we can think about a world more "harmonic", but not more perfect, because the perfection of the real world is that it's founded on our freedom. To create freedom is something above our thought.

How, exactly, is a young mother in Africa unknowingly getting AIDS from her husband and transmitting it to her unborn child an expression of our freedom?

[HOBBIT]

[quote]But how do you suggest that God get people to be nicer? [quote]

nope, no idea. I thought god could do whatever he wanted? Why not just say "i now make people really nice" or something

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
How, exactly, is a young mother in Africa unknowingly getting AIDS from her husband and transmitting it to her unborn child an expression of our freedom?

That "exactly" between commas somehow makes me fear that you won't agree with what I could respond. So I'd ask you, if possible, a question before I make the "tremendous effort" of answering your exigent question

Could you, please, tell me if you think you are a free being?

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Everyone can see the effects of God's mercy. But who, except God himself, understands the essence of his mercy? Most people cannot understand the essence of any of God's attibutes; they only know his attributes through their effects -- and also through analogy. Only mystics have eyes to see the essence of God's attributes.

-Rumi, "Masnavi"

[Rían]

GrayMouser - FatMiddle had a question for you - did you see it?

Also, I have one more for you - you haven't answered the question of what you, personally, are doing to relieve suffering, and you said "I still can't see the relevance of that to the subject under discussion, and until I do I'm going to hold back." My question to you is, why are you holding back? Do you see any possible harm that could come about from answering that question? Can you trust the question-asker and go ahead and answer, since there is no possible harm that could come from answering?

also from your post:

from GM
Sorry, Rian, I should have put a smiley on that- I meant it to come across as gentle teasing. I am sure that you are very sincere in what you do, and actually make considerable personal sacrifice to do it.

oh, ok - this is a serious topic, and I sometimes have difficulty recognizing teasing when we're talking about serious topics - you'll have to help me out

IIIRC, you posted this info once before, and if the question is whether Christians are more charitable than non-Christians, or more than other religions, or even whether religious types in general act more charitably than the non-religious, no problem- but that is a different topic. Is that what you are meaning?

No, that was absolutely NOT the context! The context was that bad news is what gets the press. Yes, Christians mess up (like everyone else), but there's just thousands upon thousands of kind actions done every day across the nation that never get any press at all. I was just showing some of the good things that one church does, which have never been on the nightly news.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Fat middle
That "exactly" between commas somehow makes me fear that you won't agree with what I could respond. So I'd ask you, if possible, a question before I make the "tremendous effort" of answering your exigent question

Could you, please, tell me if you think you are a free being?

I think I am- but I could be wrong

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

None of us are free. We are slaves to the society we've created. No you cannot be whatever you want when you grow up because you have to survive. In this society you survive by going to collage and getting a job. If you're lucky you'll have a carreer. No you're not going to grow up to change the world. There are much more important things like food in the fridge, gas bills, warm clothes, a house. Today's youth will grow up to be exactly like yesterday's did, only with more technology.

*Wants to scream out of frustration at this fact*

[GrayMouser]

Well, I still don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand, but I have faith that you will be a lamp unto my feet, so okay.

In the past I have served as a volunteer teacher in Kenya and Zimbabwe (Rhodesia, as it was at the time), done adult literacy work with native Canadians in northern B.C., and assisted (briefly) at a Cambodian refugee camp in Thailand.

In honesty I have to add that in none of these situations did I set out to do good works; I just happenened to be in the neighborhood when the opportunity arose.

I also spent a couple of years as a very-low paid ( about US$100-150/month) ESL teacher in China, but I don't count that as I had ulterior motives (learning Chinese).

I actually do more charity work now than I did when I lived in Canada, for reasons which I'll explain lower down.

My wife is a Taiwan aborigine, and their situation is very similar to that of North American natives, Australian aborigines etc.- unemployment, poor education, poverty, alcoholism, domestic violence- so I do work with aborigine children- English teaching mostly, but also outings, coaching (swimming) etc. Hey, a lot of them are my relatives anyway!

It's Sunday, so this afternoon I'll be taking a bunch of kids to the beach; admittedly not that much of a sacrifice when it's 38 degrees C outside

The reason I do charity work here and didn't back in Canada was that in my home country most of my "social" energy was focused on politics, while here I'm a guest and have to stay uninvolved, acccording to the Foreign Affairs Police, even over things like nuclear waste dumps which directly affect my children's future.

I believe that, while charity deals with an individual level, a lot of our problems are created en masse and can only be dealt with at the political level.

For example, you talked about building houses in Mexico, which I'm sure is very much appreciated by the recipients. At the same time NAFTA is causing huge suffering to Mexican peasant farmers who are unable to compete with US sudsidized agricultural products.

There is a current series in the New York Times pointing out the devastatng effects that rich-world agricultural subsidies have on poor countries:

Americans send some of their finest young people to places like Burkina Faso, where there are almost 80 Peace Corps volunteers and plans to double that number. The United States also backs debt-forgiveness programs for Burkina Faso and other types of economic assistance. But Americans would be horrified to learn that all the good accomplished by dedicated volunteers and millions of dollars in aid is overwhelmed by the havoc wreaked by Washington's bloated cotton subsidies. By cutting generous checks to 25,000 American cotton farmers whose average net worth is nearly $1 million, Washington underwrites massive overproduction. This results in depressed global prices and a harvest of poverty for Burkina Faso's two million cotton farmers.

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/h...pagewanted=all

I hasten to add that this is not just America; Europe and Japan are far worse, and Canada, in spite of being a member of the Cairns Group, is one of the biggest per capita offenders.

So in the case of charitable works,while it may be better to light one candle than curse the darkness, it's always possible that you turn out to be spending your time fixing the leak in the orphanage roof while the dam is about to burst and wash away the whole town.

[Silme*Christian]

WOW, Greymouser! That is one REALY long post! That goes into my record of the longest Entmoot post.

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Pst, I've had longer. Hers is 3456 characters, one of mine was 3944. I can remeber one being over 4000, but I can't remember which one it was.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
WOW, Greymouser! That is one REALY long post! That goes into my record of the longest Entmoot post.

Obviously you haven't been around long The REALLY big ones are still out there...circling...waiting....

[Silme*Christian]

OOO! Cool!