Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Just a quick update on a topic that people have wanted to discuss - what do you guys think about this:

People have raised the question of, roughly, how can God be all good and all-powerful if we see such terrible suffering in the world? I was just wondering how many of those that have raised this question are doing anything to relieve suffering anywhere. I think we should share what we are doing to relieve any of the suffering we see before we discuss this topic.

I think it is evasive of the original question involving pedophiles kidnapping, torturing, raping and killing children. But that's just my opinion.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
People have raised the question of, roughly, how can God be all good and all-powerful if we see such terrible suffering in the world? I was just wondering how many of those that have raised this question are doing anything to relieve suffering anywhere. I think we should share what we are doing to relieve any of the suffering we see before we discuss this topic.

I'm not sure how any actions some of us mooters can undertake to relieve the suffering in the world is related to how a god can be good and all-powerful if he allows suffering. But I'll answer: A considerable amount of my weekly allowance goes to what I jokingly call my 'good cause piggy-bank'.

From the money I gather in there I pay for Icholta, my foster elephant. (One may ask how supporting a baby elephant can relieve human suffering. I won't go into it here but if anyone wants to know I'll PM the explanation.)

I also support Handycap International that provides people in Third World Countries with artifical limbs.

I support 'Kom op tegen kanker', a Belgian initiative to raise money for research in cancer and for better treatment.

I support occasionally an organisation that trains dogs for blind people and a small number of other organisations when the occasion arises.

Now I'd like to know why a god that is supposed to be all-powerful and all-good allows suffering. *awaiting enlightment*

[Rían]

Eärniel - nice to see you back! SGH said you were going to be away for a bit - I missed you! Good to see you back on the Quote Game thread. And I'm glad to hear you supporting those organizations, they sound very helpful.

Ruinel, have you ever known me to be evasive? (in a harmful way, I mean - I might be evasive for fun sometimes.) I may take a lot of time to answer things, but I don't think I'm evasive, do you? And I think it is a very relevant question to ask

Anyone else want to share how they help to relieve the suffering we see around us? For our family:

We support 3 AIDS orphans in Uganda - we pay monthly costs for food, shelter and schooling. We have met and talked for several hours with the pastor that is developing these schools in Uganda, our church has sent teams over several times and has an ongoing relationship with the people there. In addition to the many church members that support individual kids, our church has sent thousands of dollars over to help build a new school building and better sanitation and kitchen facilities - they cook and serve THOUSANDS of meals a day in extrememly primitive conditions.

We support an organization called Children's Hunger Fund, that sends tons and tons of food to needy children all over the US and the world. My brother-in-law works for them, and we know the founder and his wife (and kids) well - they are truly wonderful people with a great vision to help the needy. They work by getting donations from corporations, typically extra things that are perfectly fine but would have just been thrown out, and then packing and shipping these donations to the local churches, working with the people that actually LIVE in the area to distribute food and other helpful things (like hygenic items). My husband and oldest son recently went to El Salvador for a short trip with this organization.

Several times a year, my husband and oldest son, along with typically 60 to 90 people from our church, head to Mexico to work with an organization that builds houses for needy families. In addition to the time involved, we pay $100 a person for the privilege of going on these trips - that money covers transportation and food and building materials. They can usually complete 2 houses in a weekend.

In addition to these 3 organizations, we also practice the principle of tithing, which is giving 10% of your income to the church that you attend. We choose to give 10% of our GROSS income (which means BEFORE taxes are taken out) to our church, and the church gives thousands of dollars for local and global aid projects. In addition to money, we send PEOPLE, too, to be on the spot and make sure the money is being spent well, and to build ongoing relationships with the churches and organizations we work with.

Here's a link to some of the things our church supports: here.


EDIT - this is NOT meant to be bragging at all, as someone suggested after reading this. Believe me, I have more than enough faults and things I DON'T do to set against the good things I DO do. I only posted this because I didn't want to ask you guys to answer a question that I wouldn't answer myself.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
The taboo test-

http://www.philosophersmag.com/bw/games/taboo.htm

Your Moralising Quotient is: 0.40.

Your Interference Factor is: 0.40.

Your Universalising Factor is: 1.00.

I disagree that some of those actions will have no affect on other parties. The disappearance of the cat would have a harmful affect. Of course, there's no saying that the family that ate the cat would have been able to track them down, but still...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I disagree that some of those actions will have no affect on other parties......

Yeah, that's why I stopped halfway - some of the things that they said to consider as non-harmful, weren't, so there was no way I could answer the question. And they just didn't give enough info to make a good evaluation, either, like in the son visiting his mother's grave example. I just wasn't interested after a certain point, because I saw too many flaws in it. But those are fun/interesting to take sometimes.

[Rían]

OPENING POST on the topic of suffering -

I thought it might be a good idea to open the subject with a few questions for people to think about. I'm going to leave Sat. or Sun. for a vacation for a week - you guys can either start without me, or think about things for a week (it's certainly a topic that needs thought!) and start up when I get back.

And people can also continue sharing what they, personally, are doing to relieve some of the suffering we see around us. I like to hear what people are doing. I also think it's an important question to ask when we are talking about a subject like this.

The questions I'm asking refer to the God of the Christian faith, but anyone else can bring in other religions if they want to.

So -

Question 1 - How do YOU think God should have made people and the world? Please really, really think about it and provide some working details - don't just say "He should make everyone happy!" That type of comment won't get us very far.

Question 2 - What do you think of a forced/arranged marriage where the bride-to-be does NOT love her husband-to-be, or want to be with him, even if he is good?

Question 3 - What are qualities in a friend that are really important to you?

[HOBBIT]

Question 2 - What do you think of a forced/arranged marriage where the bride-to-be does NOT love her husband-to-be, or want to be with him, even if he is good?

That would be interesting. Hard to say. It would certainly be a lot easier than going through all the trouble of searching for a girlfriend then finally after years asking her to marry you

Besides matchmakers, fathers usually hooked people up, right? Well I'd trust my dad's judgement in women.

In most cases overtime the couple would learn to love eachother, so it's not that bad.

But just a thought - I guess I'm against it.

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

I took that test.

Your Moralising Quotient is: 0.00.

Your Interference Factor is: 0.00.

Your Universalising Factor is: -1.

HAHAH!!!! I am fully permisive.


Rian's Questions:

Question 1 - He has made us with free will so how can he try to guide us without making us want his affection? I say, if he wanted us to be obedient, he should have made us that way. I think he made us this way so we could use our imaginations. We are all an experiment in seeing what he could create and, as we got smarter, how he could influence us.

Question 2 - I think people should choose to have an arranged marrage. Arranged marrages are fine, but the people involved should have supreem veto rights if they both decide that they couldn't live with each other.

Question 3 - Ah. Friendship. That is interesting that you should ask. I view friendships as very limited things. The whole world is my friend. I make friends easily and loose them easily. That is from growing up moving all the time. My longest friend is one from fourth grade, and I don't even see my eight grade friends anymore. I try not to make attatchments to people. WHAT I LOOK FOR IN A FRIEND is anyone that's near me that I can have a conversation with.

[Rían]

Thanks for answering, Hobbit and Katt, but I just wanted to clarify question 1 for Katt - it's NOT how DID God make the world, it's how do YOU think He SHOULD have made the world? IOW, is there a better way He could have made it, in your opinion? If so, what are the details? And what do you think of my post on your Thich Nhat Hanh quote, if you saw it?

And Hobbit - I'd reeeeellly like to hear your opinion on questions 1 and 3 - please-oh-please? (and also your answer to my question on what you're personally doing to relieve some suffering in the world)

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I have trouble with this kind of statement, because doesn't that imply that if someone you love was passed out on a train track with a train coming, and a teapot was also on the tracks, that you would be in a real moral dilemma which to save (if you could save only one)? And I can't see that you would have any trouble choosing to save a person over a teapot. Would you?

I think it sounds nice, but has nothing to do with reality, where the rubber meets the road.

Ah. Sorry I missed it. I think that quote has meaning in everyday life. In specific situations, you are right. You have to choose one above the other. Or you may not choose.

I know the question was how SHOULD he have created the world, but my faith (which is as of yet nameless) is all about "that is the way things are" so why speculate on what could have been? (My ma's a taoist and she says I got the meaning of tao without even trying)

Or are you asking what WE would have done to create the world? I wasn't around at the beginning of time and creation, so I could not say.

How SHOULD he have created the world? What other examples have we to go on? What "better"worlds have we seen that we can say "t should have been like that"? We have only one example and without something else to compare it to, how can we say it SHOULD BE any different?

I apologize for not being able to answer the question correctly.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

Also, that rather silly (IMO) question about is something wrong ONLY because God says it is - like if God says it's wrong to drink water, that makes drinking water wrong, with the implication that God can be capricious. IMO, it's a nonsensical question, sort of like saying "Is it wrong for RÃ*an to wave her hand and give someone a bad case of acne?" - it's impossible for me to do this, and it's impossible for God to capriciously declare something wrong that has absolutely nothing wrong in itself.

See, these types of things, IMO, don't look at the heart of the person involved (either people or God), which is the crux of the matter.

Like eating shellfish? or not cooking the calf in its mother's milk?

And didn't God place the Tree in the Garden simply as an arbitrary test of our obedience- after all if, eating the fruit was wrong in itself, God could simply have chosen to not put it there.

I had this argument with a Mormon, on why God bans tea and coffee but allows Coke. He defended it as precisely an arbitrary test.

Actually, that is a very old topic in moral philosophy, and goes back at least to Plato- "Is the good intrinsically Good in itself, or because the gods have said it is so" .

Can't remember which Dialogue it was in

[HOBBIT]

And Hobbit - I'd reeeeellly like to hear your opinion on questions 1 and 3 - please-oh-please? (and also your answer to my question on what you're personally doing to relieve some suffering in the world)

oh alright -

1. For the sake of the question saying that there is a god, i don't know. In relation to how people are now - i'd say nicer would be better! In general people tend to be mean and step on whoever they have to get on top. Not everyone, just a lot of not nice people.

2. answered, sort of :P I don't think I would mind a match that much - but that is not an option, so I will just have to find true love

3. qualities in a friend...hmmm they should be honest, trustworthy (not blab things you mean to confide in them), understanding, be true friends (ie not use you or anything), look out for you, fun to hang out with, interesting, stuff like that.

not sure of the purpose of those questions, but I answered them.

Question on what I personally do to relieve suffering? Didn't see that question, hmm.

Well, I try to be nice to others. I am very nice and polite to old people. I do...stuff

I have done some community service.

I recently joined a chapter of People to People International - I think that is a group that does lots of community service and things like that, helping the community and others. Several of my friends and I just started it in this area (PTPI is an international organization).

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Like eating shellfish? or not cooking the calf in its mother's milk?

And didn't God place the Tree in the Garden simply as an arbitrary test of our obedience- after all if, eating the fruit was wrong in itself, God could simply have chosen to not put it there.

Oh GM - I figured you'd ask about the tree, but I'm just feeling too fatigued now to get into it - stupid body My opinion is that it is NOT arbitrary. Dietary laws in the OT were for either very good health reasons, that I know of, or to illustrate a principle. They were revoked, as I'm sure you know (am I right that you know this?), in the NT.

Actually, that is a very old topic in moral philosophy, and goes back at least to Plato- "Is the good intrinsically Good in itself, or because the gods have said it is so" .

Can't remember which Dialogue it was in

I would say a third option is correct - good is what God knows to be good in itself, because He is the Creator.
What do you think of that option?

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

This is a quote from a movie I like.

"[Adam was trying to live up to God's expectations by following the rules.] But Eve, Eve just wanted to know ****. She took a bite of the apple and knew what was good and what was bad, and she gave it to Adam so he could know too because they were in love. And that was good, they now knew."

I guess what I'm trying to say with that is that I think god wanted them to try the apple cuz if they didn't they wouldn't have known it was wrong anyway, and they couldn't have felt God's love anyway.

It was in that instant that Adam and Eve discovered right from wrong that they truly became humans. Before they were just hairless apes.

It's all destiny really.

I think the thing with Mormons not being allowed tea or coffee is that in the old days it was practical. The actual scripture says something along the lines of "Thou shalt not put anything excessively hot or excessively cold into your body" and that probaby was good advice when it was written.
Now it is just tradition. Traditions are good too, just not the ones that involve decapitating your enimies and burning witches.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
oh alright -

Thanks for putting up with me and my goofy ways, Hobbit

1. For the sake of the question saying that there is a god, i don't know. In relation to how people are now - i'd say nicer would be better! In general people tend to be mean and step on whoever they have to get on top. Not everyone, just a lot of not nice people.

But how do you suggest that God get people to be nicer?

And I'm glad to hear how you help out



GrayMouser - of your courtesy (I've always wanted to use that phrase!), would you please answer the questions I asked? It would be a great favor to me.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Your Moralising Quotient is: 0.40.

Your Interference Factor is: 0.40.

Your Universalising Factor is: 1.00.

I disagree that some of those actions will have no affect on other parties. The disappearance of the cat would have a harmful affect. Of course, there's no saying that the family that ate the cat would have been able to track them down, but still...

Track who down?

And, sorry, should have posted my own rankings:

Your Moralising Quotient is: 0.10.

Your Interference Factor is: 0.00.

Your Universalising Factor is: 1.00.


I still have a Kantian objection to lying (not that I always live up to it ).

And I don't mind whatever people do with dead chickens, but I don't particularly want to watch!

Reminds me of an old Freak Brothers comic.

Fat Freddy is buying a live turkey for Thanksgiving. Farmer eyes him suspiciously:
"You're not gonna do anything weird with this bird , are you, son?"

"Naw, I'm just gonna kill it and eat it"

"Well, that's OK, then"


I found the first universalising question about the flag confusing, as well. As written, it could be interpreted as another country having a deliberate policy of using your own coutry's flag as a washrag, in which case it would be an attempt to cause harm.

As for the son's deathbed promise, I think they were trying to minimize the mitigating factors; just that it was too much trouble to keep his promise and that nobody would ever know.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I disagree that some of those actions will have no affect on other parties. The disappearance of the cat would have a harmful affect. Of course, there's no saying that the family that ate the cat would have been able to track them down, but still...

I think it was their own cat that they ate. So nobody else would miss the cat.

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

I had a dream I was a vampire and ate the neighbor's cat.




Sorry. I couldn't resist.




POSTING! I meant I couldn't resist POSTING. I had a choice with the cat.

[GrayMouser]

Rian, of course, willingly- I've just been busy with some -ahem, ahem -charitable works , but I'll be willing to give the Creator thing a whirl.

Avacados- the pits are too big- sorry, that was George Burns

Okay, seriously:

No birth defects- since there's no evolution, we don't need mutations, and surely being omnipotent I can arrange our genetic material so there're no crippling combinations.

No infectious diseases- the world's been a better place since we got rid of smallpox; it would be a better place without AIDS.

Other natural evils- fires, floods, earthquakes, droughts- some of them such as forest fires are probably necessary for the environment, and I want to keep a self-sustaining planet- I don't want to have to interfere all the time, but we can make the weather a little more reliable. No more failing monsoons that cause millions to starve.

As for the resultant population pressure, adjust our physiology so humans naturally have only two or three kids (on average, of course);or have wide-spread, naturally growing contraceptive plants.

Human evil is trickier, since I want to keep free will.

Here's one possibility: low-level empathic telepathy, so whatever suffering you afflict on another will be reflected back on you. If you really want to injure or even kill someone, be aware that it's going to cause you a world of hurt.

Arthur C. Clarke tried something like this in "Childhood's End". In this case the alien Overlords didn't interfere in what people did to each other but they forbade cruelty to animals. A crowd of people in Spain defied them by staging a bullfight, and at the first stab at the bull, everyone in the crowd felt the pain.

There was another attempt at this in a science-fiction series by Robert Silverberg, (Lord Valentine's Castle; Majipoor Chronicles; Vlentine Pontifex). The King of Dreams had invented a telepathic device which enabled him to track down anyone who comitted a violent crime and torment them in their sleep- every night.

Again , you have free will- you just have to pay the consequences for your actions- openly, publically, immediately and with utmost certainty.

Since both Last Judgement Heaven/Hell and Karmic/reincarnation varieties of religion believe in eventual punishment, why not make it obvious and make it happen now- that's the goal we set with our human systems of justice, even if we rarely achieve it.

[GrayMouser]

Question 2) Bad, though in general arranged marriages probably work out just as well- the parents usually have the well-being of both parties in mind.

The rejected bridegroom certainly shouldn't attempt to apply any punishment to his bride- dousing her with propane and setting her on fire or throwing acid in her face is all too often the usual recourse.

3)Qualities in a friend- loyalty, honesty, trustworthiness....the usual. And one who shouldn't seek revenge if you decline or outgrow their friendship.

not sure of the purpose of those questions, but I answered them.

Just wait