07-30-2003, 11:02 AM | #1881 | |||
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Don't blame those that lied to you from birth, they themselves believe the same lies. They have not broken the programming, like you and I have. BTW: the equivalent to Bar- and Bat-Mitzvah is Confirmation. Communion is where, after the Priest says a few words over little wafers and wine, you eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus Christ in the form of the little wafer and a sip of the wine. Supposedly, the words said by the Priest bring the body of Jesus Christ into the wafers and the blood. *shrugs* whatever. Personally, I dread the Christian holidays because I'm still expected to go to mass with my family. The presure of buying gifts for everyone, and getting gifts I don't need. But last Easter, I told my sister I was NOT going to Easter mass... I thought she was going to pass out. |
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07-30-2003, 11:29 AM | #1882 | |
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“If you have been practicing another religion but you have been unaware of the blessing of Christianity until now and your deductions total less then $10,000 please go to Table G-7, section F15 subsection Luke 4:17 and determine your sin quotient for the upcoming fiscal year and say three hail marys and....”
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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07-30-2003, 11:41 AM | #1883 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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07-30-2003, 02:44 PM | #1884 | |
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IOW, the claim that ALL religions hold the real truth is false, as you said, since they contradict each other, but your "therefore" is not logically correct, because there is a possibility you left out - it is logically possible, given your first statement, that ONE (and only one) holds the real truth. I'm NOT talking opinion here, I'm talking logical deduction. ALL religions MAY be false, but it's NOT logically true that ALL MUST be false - it is logically possible that ONE (and ONLY one) is true. Another way to put it - it's logically possible that ALL are false, but it is not logically NECESSARY that all are false. But it IS logically necessary that more than one cannot be true. What do you think of GrayMouser's marble analogy? Do you think he's lost his marbles or does he have a valid point? See if this analogy will explain it - To use marbles again - say there's 5 marbles, 4 people representing different religions, and 1 person representing the truth. The marble colors are red, green, yellow, blue, and unknown. The "truth" person takes out the "unknown" marble and holds it in his hand. Each of the 4 "religion" people is handed one of the remaining marbles - red, green, yellow, and blue. This meets the requirements of your statement - all religions are different (hold different marbles). Now say that each sincerely believes that their marble matches the "truth" marble. This is exactly your scenario. Now the "truth" marble may either match one of the others, or it may NOT match one of the others. Valid possibilities for the truth marble include red, green, yellow, and blue, in addition to purple, pink, etc. ALL of these colors are valid possibilities. It is TRUE that (1) ALL of the religion people have different marbles. But you CANNOT logically say the reverse - that (2) NONE of the people has the same color marble as the truth marble, because (3) one of the color possibilities of the truth marble is .... blue! Do you see my (and GrayMouser's) point? Now we cannot know for sure the "color" of the true state of being of the universe. But we CAN know that if all religions have a different opinion, then (1) ALL of them CANNOT be right (like you said). But we can also logically deduce that EITHER: (2a) NONE of them are right, OR (2b) ONE and only one is right. I see no way to logically disprove this. Do you? One of those two choices, 2a or 2b, MUST be right. The only place opinion comes in here is which one is right. But they are BOTH logically possible. Your opinion is that (2a) is right, and my opinion is that (2b) is right and Christianity is the right "color". It CANNOT be logically proved that either possibility is wrong. In addition, it CAN be logically proved that one MUST be right. Do you agree? So if 2a is true, then all the marbles are different colors, including the one that reflects the true state of the universe. If 2b is true, then the marble that reflects the true state of the universe matches one of the marbles that one of the religions hold. Either one may be true; one CANNOT logically eliminate either possibility. (sorry if this is a bit thick for those who have not taken formal logic classes, but really, you don't need to have taken a class to see that these particular deductions must be true.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-30-2003 at 03:27 PM. |
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07-30-2003, 03:15 PM | #1885 | |
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Then, by your own logic, you could be following the false religion. But, you hold onto the thought and possibility that you are following the True Religion, reaping your reward when you die. That veils you from the possibility or probablility that you are wasting yourself on a false religion. Even when contradictions to what you have been taught about your religion stare you in the face. The opinion that YOUR religion is the TRUE RELIGION is opinion and only opinion. It can not be proven to be the TRUE RELIGION by any logical means. |
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07-30-2003, 03:41 PM | #1886 | |||||
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My only point was that your conclusion that all religions are false, since all religions are different, is a logically invalid conclusion. I think we also both agree that it's wrong to hold an opinion on an important matter without thinking it through. I have thought my opinion through extensively, and I believe that you have, too. However, neither of us can think about everything, and that's why discussion is good.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-30-2003, 03:55 PM | #1887 |
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It is all perspective.
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07-30-2003, 04:58 PM | #1888 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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07-31-2003, 02:47 AM | #1889 | |
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I found the greatest quote. It is my new Mantra.
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How to Survive the Sillmarillion I thought that Alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do. I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze. But now I know that there's a time and there's a place where I can choose To walk the fine line between self control and self abuse. "Lacerations make complications, but welts go away in a day." |
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07-31-2003, 10:07 PM | #1890 | |
Elf Lord
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The only attempt to make a logical argument for God's existence that I know of is St. Anselm's Ontological Proof, and that's been pretty well refuted.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-31-2003, 11:16 PM | #1891 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-03-2003, 02:39 AM | #1892 | |
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If I mix four quarters and a dime and claim that all of them are dimes, then that claim is false. Therefore, none of them can be dimes. |
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08-03-2003, 03:04 AM | #1893 | |
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08-03-2003, 03:35 AM | #1894 | |
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Oh, very sorry, Ruinel. I just realized that R*an had already answered your post on the possibility that religions are true. Ignore my post.
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08-04-2003, 10:26 AM | #1895 |
Elf Lord
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apropos of the earlier discussion of whether something can be wrong even if it is not (apparently) harmful:
The taboo test- http://www.philosophersmag.com/bw/games/taboo.htm Warning!! Some of the questions may be considered not appropriate for some mooters, especially younger ones. There are some sections asking you to judge whether some particular sexual activities are morally right or wrong.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
08-04-2003, 12:33 PM | #1896 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I started to go thru the test, but found it impossible to answer accurately after awhile - like in the example of the son promising his mother, on her deathbed, to visit her grave once a week, then he doesn't do it; is that wrong? Well, it's not that simple at all - what if he had to move to another country to get medical care for his wife? I think it was a wrong promise to make in the first place, if it was unconditional, because no one knows their future. And I think if he had to move to another country to save his wife's life, then that is the morally right choice to make, to the best of my understanding, even if it means breaking his promise about visiting the grave.
Also, that rather silly (IMO) question about is something wrong ONLY because God says it is - like if God says it's wrong to drink water, that makes drinking water wrong, with the implication that God can be capricious. IMO, it's a nonsensical question, sort of like saying "Is it wrong for R*an to wave her hand and give someone a bad case of acne?" - it's impossible for me to do this, and it's impossible for God to capriciously declare something wrong that has absolutely nothing wrong in itself. See, these types of things, IMO, don't look at the heart of the person involved (either people or God), which is the crux of the matter.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-04-2003 at 12:35 PM. |
08-04-2003, 12:39 PM | #1897 | |
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Results Your Moralising Quotient is: 0.43. Your Interference Factor is: 0.20. Your Universalising Factor is: 1.00. Guess Im pretty out there morality wise cept I dont like people who eat cats.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-04-2003 at 12:45 PM. |
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08-04-2003, 12:44 PM | #1898 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think it sounds nice, but has nothing to do with reality, where the rubber meets the road.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-04-2003 at 12:57 PM. |
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08-04-2003, 12:55 PM | #1899 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Just a quick update on a topic that people have wanted to discuss - what do you guys think about this:
People have raised the question of, roughly, how can God be all good and all-powerful if we see such terrible suffering in the world? I was just wondering how many of those that have raised this question are doing anything to relieve suffering anywhere. I think we should share what we are doing to relieve any of the suffering we see before we discuss this topic.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-04-2003 at 12:57 PM. |
08-04-2003, 01:04 PM | #1900 | |
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I really hate these tests... they make me seem like a freak. I got: Your Moralising Quotient is: 0.23. Your Interference Factor is: 0.00. Your Universalising Factor is: 0.25. R*an, I think the question was worded that way (god and drinking water) so that the reader could be separated from laws/rules that are already handed down by the bible, or some other religious book. Obviously, there is no religious law against drinking water. |
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