Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
and THATS where we agnostics come in! mathmatically the most likely scenerio by far if you ask me. I mean what are the chances of our human mind comprehending the infinite scope of the divine? or being able to prove that there cant BE a divine. silly people...

I'd say the chances of humans comprehending the infinite scope of the divine is ZERO .

However, I would also say it's reasonable to assume that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator would design his creations (us ) in such a way that they would be able to comprehend SOME of the divine, since I'm sure He knew, before He created us, how He planned to reveal Himself to us - through the Bible and creation and His Son.

My kids can't comprehend all that I do, but just because that is true, does not mean that they cannot comprehend SOME of what I do, or SOME LEVEL of the more complex things I do.

Does that make sense, IRex? Do you agree?

[Rían]

And I just thought of another analogy - many of you know that I worked in military radar for 10 years. And in that field, the intelligent designers intentionally design the receivers to receive the signal that they know they'll be sending thru the transmitter. IOW, the transmitter will send a signal with certain characteristics, including frequency. It doesn't make any sense to design a receiver intended to receive a signal in the X-band range in such a way that it only can see S-band signals. No, an intelligent designer would design a receiver to match the intended signal.

And also, BTW, receivers do not receive the entire signal - only a small portion. But the transmitter designers take that into account, and make sure that the signal is such that the receiver gets enough information to make an informed decision.

And that's your course on radar for the day!

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
what religion do you belong to Katt_knome_hobbit?

None in particular. I belive in the fundemential interconectedness of all things. S'that alright?

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'm a Christian - Yay for God!

Let's see - on this page, Arien and Silme and I are Christian. Lief Erikson is too - he's on the previous page, I think.

I remember your name, Katt, but I haven't seen you for a long time - have you been gone for awhile, or do we just post on different threads?

I think we just post on different threads. Have you been on any RPG's recently?

[Rían]

No, I don't go on the RPG forum - I already spend too much time on the Moot on the other forums, and RPG's look fun but time-consuming.

Don't theologists usually specialize in a particular theology? Or do you want to study a bit of everything?

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Theologists can study a particular religion, but I wanna study all of them.

You can actually take classes in compearitive religion in collage.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'd say the chances of humans comprehending the infinite scope of the divine is ZERO .

However, I would also say it's reasonable to assume that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator would design his creations (us ) in such a way that they would be able to comprehend SOME of the divine, since I'm sure He knew, before He created us, how He planned to reveal Himself to us - through the Bible and creation and His Son.

My kids can't comprehend all that I do, but just because that is true, does not mean that they cannot comprehend SOME of what I do, or SOME LEVEL of the more complex things I do.

Does that make sense, IRex? Do you agree?

No. A child human in relation to an adult human and an adult human in relation to the ultimate force of creation simply will never work. There is no parallel there at all. Its like saying 1 is to 10 as 10 is to infinity. Well no. That doesn’t work. Infinity is beyond our grasp. And the relation of any number to it defies true comprehension.

We may have something in us that allows us to tap into something “divine� in some way but I don’t think its as it was written in the bible. I think the bible (and christianty in general) reflects the biological predisposition to understanding something beyond our abilities. Perhaps this is innate. Perhaps this is even prewired but I don’t know how. But its not a case where every word in a book written by humans happens to be the exact way the divine is supposed to be understood. Christianty is simply one human translation (ad lib) of something beyond our grasp. Something shimmering and ancient and somehow familiar but unidentifiable. For hundreds of thousands of years shamans and witch doctors, druids and high priests, clerics and lamas, and religious men of every cloth and every culture have strove to get their minds to the point where the divine begins. What has resulted is religions and cults and theological disciplines of every conceivable shape and form. Christianity just happens to be one. The truth is bigger then all of them however. But like Jack Nicholson says YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! Because our mind was never made to even approach such a thing. And that’s all you can say.

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
No. A child human in relation to an adult human and an adult human in relation to the ultimate force of creation simply will never work. There is no parallel there at all. Its like saying 1 is to 10 as 10 is to infinity. Well no. That doesn’t work. Infinity is beyond our grasp. And the relation of any number to it defies true comprehension.

That is an interesting example. However I think that 1 has a very easy relationship to infinity and 10 doesn't. Children can understand the Ultimate Force of Creation because they are more willing to accept that "God did this and that is the way it is." It is when we get older and more complex ourselves that it is harder to understand God.

Did that make sense? I usually don't debate like this.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Ruinel
These are your opinions, and not fact. NO offense intended.

The point I was making is that all religions claim to hold the REAL TRUTH. If they are all different, then that claim is false. Therefore, all religions are false and not true.

Ruinel, I can't follow your argument here.

Let's say we all guess at the colour of a marble in a box.
Some say red, some blue, some green etc. (some even say there is no marble )

To make it an even closer analogy let's say we all look at it through a different coloured lens (including one that shows there is nothing in the box), so we all claim that we are right and everyone else is wrong.

Now, when we open the box, we might find that one of us is right; we might find that all of us were wrong i.e. it might be a colour that nobody guessed.

But it is not necessarily the case that everyone is wrong simply because we a)disagree and b) each claim to be right.

Unless you're Insidious Rex; then you open the box and find an elephant

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Its like saying 1 is to 10 as 10 is to infinity. Well no.

Well yes , in at least 3 ways:

1. 1 is smaller than 10, and 10 is smaller than infinity.
2. 1 is a subset of 10, and 10 is a subset of infinity.
3. 1 means "a single item" in the set of 1 to 10, and 1 means "a single item" in the set of 1 to infinity.

God says in the Bible that He is just. We know what "just" means, altho we cannot fully comprehend every aspect of God's character, and even the fullness of "just"ness. But we can comprehend a part of His character, and a part of just-ness, and the part is consistant with the whole.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'd say the chances of humans comprehending the infinite scope of the divine is ZERO .

However, I would also say it's reasonable to assume that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator would design his creations (us ) in such a way that they would be able to comprehend SOME of the divine, since I'm sure He knew, before He created us, how He planned to reveal Himself to us - through the Bible and creation and His Son.

Well, if you build your conclusions into your assumptions it's reasonable to assume anything...

[GrayMouser]

BTW, shouldn't that be theologians, not theologists?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Katt_knome_hobbit
That is an interesting example. However I think that 1 has a very easy relationship to infinity and 10 doesn't. Children can understand the Ultimate Force of Creation because they are more willing to accept that "God did this and that is the way it is." It is when we get older and more complex ourselves that it is harder to understand God.

Did that make sense? I usually don't debate like this.

Its very interesting you would point that out… some believe that children are closer to this supernatural/divine/unexplained (whatever you want to call it) source then adults are because something in our development restricts our ability to tap into or recognize this divine aspect so we lose that ability as we age. Now perhaps there are some adults that for one reason or another never lose it and maybe they are the ones that go on to become shaman and/or artists and/or completely mad. But it seems to be a cross cultural phenomenon that children are closer to something super natural for some reason then adults are. By the time we grow up we are jaded and biased and set in our ways by culture and history and those windows of perception have been closed. Ok I feel like watching Sixth Sense now…

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Unless you're Insidious Rex; then you open the box and find an elephant

More likely you open the box and are blinded by the sheer overwhelming force of whats inside since our pathetic senses cant deal with it. Of maybe theres an infinite number of boxes. Or maybe its like the light show at the end of 2001. or maybe you look in and you see yourself looking into a box. See its so much more fun having all your options available.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well yes , in at least 3 ways:

1. 1 is smaller than 10, and 10 is smaller than infinity.
2. 1 is a subset of 10, and 10 is a subset of infinity.
3. 1 means "a single item" in the set of 1 to 10, and 1 means "a single item" in the set of 1 to infinity.

um.. no I confused you I think with my wording. I was saying your example of child to adult paralleling human to god didn’t work at all. what would work better would be the 1 to 10 and 10 to infinity thing. But I said “well no� after my example and you probably thought I was talking about my example instead of yours. So hopefully Ive cleared that up.

EDIT: by the way those three points dont really apply to infinity (just like our analogies dont apply to a creater force) because infinity is an unbounded quantity and not a real number like 1 or 10. therefor you cant really do rational comparisons with infinity and other numbers.

God says in the Bible that He is just. We know what "just" means, altho we cannot fully comprehend every aspect of God's character, and even the fullness of "just"ness. But we can comprehend a part of His character, and a part of just-ness, and the part is consistant with the whole.

are you saying he is “just� as in he is fair or he just is? Ive never understood the “just is� thing myself. Seems like kind of a cop out. But at the same time it seems very eastern thinking. And kinda cool. But it doesn’t explain anything. And I don’t think it has much to do with comprehending the incomprehendable.

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Well, if you build your conclusions into your assumptions it's reasonable to assume anything...

What I'm saying is that GIVEN the Bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient, and GIVEN the Bible says that God says we can know Him at some level, and GIVEN that the Bible says that God created us, THEREFORE it is reasonable to assume that God created us in a way to carry out His statement that we can know Him at some level.

Is that better?


ps - I like your marble analogy.

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Its very interesting you would point that out… some believe that children are closer to this supernatural/divine/unexplained (whatever you want to call it) source then adults are because something in our development restricts our ability to tap into or recognize this divine aspect so we lose that ability as we age. Now perhaps there are some adults that for one reason or another never lose it and maybe they are the ones that go on to become shaman and/or artists and/or completely mad. But it seems to be a cross cultural phenomenon that children are closer to something super natural for some reason then adults are. By the time we grow up we are jaded and biased and set in our ways by culture and history and those windows of perception have been closed. Ok I feel like watching Sixth Sense now…

That is interestingly cross cultural isn't it?

More likely you open the box and are blinded by the sheer overwhelming force of whats inside since our pathetic senses cant deal with it. Of maybe theres an infinite number of boxes. Or maybe its like the light show at the end of 2001. or maybe you look in and you see yourself looking into a box. See its so much more fun having all your options available.

Or maybe it is every color you guessed and still empty.

Or maybe there is a different box inside for each person.

"Or maybe we need a new dog. Or maybe we need a CAT! (Growl, bark, bite, ow, crash)"

are you saying he is “just� as in he is fair or he just is? Ive never understood the “just is� thing myself. Seems like kind of a cop out. But at the same time it seems very eastern thinking. And kinda cool. But it doesn’t explain anything. And I don’t think it has much to do with comprehending the incomprehendable.

I think they meant Just as in fair. God is supposedly overwhelmingly fair. I don't belive that. He told Adam and Eve not to do something and then gave them the curiosity to do it. It was a will power test, right? Why was the punishment so severe? And why do the rest of us have this curse?

Also, most religions say that if you belive in any other religion you are doomed. God gave us the power to choose, and then punishes us for choosing wrong? Where does the whole "Great Forgiver" part come in?

That is why I don't identify with a single religion while still beliving.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Katt_knome_hobbit
I think they meant Just as in fair. God is supposedly overwhelmingly fair. I don't belive that. He told Adam and Eve not to do something and then gave them the curiosity to do it. It was a will power test, right? Why was the punishment so severe? And why do the rest of us have this curse?

Also, most religions say that if you belive in any other religion you are doomed. God gave us the power to choose, and then punishes us for choosing wrong? Where does the whole "Great Forgiver" part come in?

That is why I don't identify with a single religion while still beliving.

God gave Adam and Eve free will...the ability to choose to love God and live in His love or to choose otherwise. However, by choosing otherwise they rejected the law God set up for the better of all humanity...therefore, they rejected God because everything God does is law....god loved us so He Himself came down and died so that we would be able to die and return to Him....I'm not entirely sure why the whole of humanity was cursed just because of Adam and Eve..although we Catholics believe that Mary was free from this "original sin" only because she was the mother of God

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Katt_knome_hobbit
Also, most religions say that if you belive in any other religion you are doomed. God gave us the power to choose, and then punishes us for choosing wrong? Where does the whole "Great Forgiver" part come in?

What I never understood about that whole “join us or you are doomed� mentality is that for countless eons millions (billions?) of people had no option about joining Christianity because they had never heard of it (and in fact it didn’t exist as a religion for most of humanities time here on earth). Yet they were all doomed because they didn’t become Christians? That seems nonsensical to me. Even today millions of people live in places where Christianity simply isn’t on the radar. Yet they are doomed simply because of where they were born and how they were raised? Just because in their environment there is a different dominant religion and there is no exposure to Christianity? Seems incredibly arbitrary. Basically they are all getting screwed over by the billions and they aren’t even aware of it. So much for a “Just� god.

That is why I don't identify with a single religion while still beliving.

so then what do you believe exactly?

[HOBBIT]

*Read some of the posts concerning kids and religion, not all*

Maybe it has to do with the fact that younger children are very open, programmable ppl. Almost everything you tell them they will believe. I have experienced this with many yougner kids, including my cousin (who is 5 or 6 now, something like that).

Now she seems to question what we tell her if it is something conflicting, but for the most part she still accepts most everything we say - no question. Tell her something unbelieveable and she usually will believe it.

Little kids are taken into religions and they just absorb it. It becomes so programmed into them that it is hard to get it out, hence the brainwashing. Kids are dragged into temples or churches from little kids, told silly things and they usually believe them for life.

It was hard for me to get out of that - I usually find myself saying God a lot.

[HOBBIT]

When you tell little kids about religion they often just accept it - no question. Don't be all "oh this kid asked this question." Sometimes kids will ask questions about the stories or something that doesn't make sense to them (it should be the whole religion),but that is only a few people, not most.

Do you see my point?

Let's discuss Christian lies: Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
What's up with that?

Just to prove my point, convienantly, placed in with the ludicrous stories of god are more ludicrous stories about a fat guy delivering presents and a big bunny delivering presents and eggs.

Kids believe that NO QUESTION. EVEN I believed in these for a tiny bit and I wasn't even Christian - shows just how strong this lie is.

Another case in point: tooth fairy. i believed in her the most - came to my senses around end of elementary school I believe.

I stopped believing those in early elementary school, but I had friends that still believed in Santa well into MIDDLE SCHOOL. I was always trying to talk my Christian friends out of them, but they wouldn't listen. When I FIANLLY convinced a friend that Santa was not real, he still insisted that the Easter Bunny was real, *sigh* Of course this was all because they sent their presents over to our house and did all sorts of trickery to keep this up

What is up with that? I know for a fact that many Christian friends I had in elementary school and even in middle school thought two main big ppl in their religion were Santa and the Easter Bunny. GULLIBILITY. If you asked them about Christmas, they would say that the purpose is for Santa to bring them lots of presents - nothing about Christ, and that is all they cared about.

Kids are also much more enthusiastic in relgious services. I know that I was. I also really liked Hebrew school at first.

Then I got older. A lot of it stopped making any sense - did it ever make any sense? Services quickly became huge bores where I would yawn all throughout and just think about leaving.

I saw the truth, that I had basically been lied to from birth. I left right after my bar-mitzvah, which was a required thing. I've been to mayeb 4 or 5 services since then, and that was over 2 years ago. Quit hebrew school - started to hate that.

I noticed a pattern that a ton of the people in my hebrew school also quit and rarely attended services. My brother did the same thing.

My Christian friends do the same thing. I guess they go along with their communions or whatever it is - then they never show up. Many "christian" friends I have never go to Church and dread going - they find it a boring waste of a sunday. I know tons of ex-christians in my own grade. I guess they didn't like that huge amount of joy they got as Christians?

This proves my point that as you get older, you get smarter, wiser, you begin to QUESTION (which is a good thing), and reject a lot of things that don't make sense to you.

Nowadays only a few cling on - in my whole grade (full of well over 500 ppl), there is only a dozen or less people that I know of that are religious christians. That's great - they are nice people, good friends, and they don't bother me with their religion.

I'd say majority of my school is agnostic or athiest.

I predict that when my generation reaches adulthood - there will be a big decrease in religion. Now more and more kids are raised atheist.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
What I never understood about that whole “join us or you are doomed� mentality is that for countless eons millions (billions?) of people had no option about joining Christianity because they had never heard of it (and in fact it didn’t exist as a religion for most of humanities time here on earth). Yet they were all doomed because they didn’t become Christians? That seems nonsensical to me. Even today millions of people live in places where Christianity simply isn’t on the radar. Yet they are doomed simply because of where they were born and how they were raised? Just because in their environment there is a different dominant religion and there is no exposure to Christianity? Seems incredibly arbitrary. Basically they are all getting screwed over by the billions and they aren’t even aware of it. So much for a “Just� god.

I beleive..and well the Catholic church teaches that if someone is never introduced to Christianity but lives their life justly...perhaps in accordance with their own religion then that person will be judged differently seeing as how they were never introduced to Jesus...contrary to what many Protestants beleive (no offence to any of my Protestant friends ) the Catholic church does teach that Jews can be saved wiouth believing that Christ is the Messiah...don't ask me how, I only recently found this out but I believe it's because God will never break His covenant with His chosed people

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
When you tell little kids about religion they often just accept it - no question. Don't be all "oh this kid asked this question." Sometimes kids will ask questions about the stories or something that doesn't make sense to them (it should be the whole religion),but that is only a few people, not most.

Do you see my point?

Let's discuss Christian lies: Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
What's up with that?

Just to prove my point, convienantly, placed in with the ludicrous stories of god are more ludicrous stories about a fat guy delivering presents and a big bunny delivering presents and eggs.

Kids believe that NO QUESTION. EVEN I believed in these for a tiny bit and I wasn't even Christian - shows just how strong this lie is.

Another case in point: tooth fairy. i believed in her the most - came to my senses around end of elementary school I believe.

I stopped believing those in early elementary school, but I had friends that still believed in Santa well into MIDDLE SCHOOL. I was always trying to talk my Christian friends out of them, but they wouldn't listen. When I FIANLLY convinced a friend that Santa was not real, he still insisted that the Easter Bunny was real, *sigh* Of course this was all because they sent their presents over to our house and did all sorts of trickery to keep this up

What is up with that? I know for a fact that many Christian friends I had in elementary school and even in middle school thought two main big ppl in their religion were Santa and the Easter Bunny. GULLIBILITY. If you asked them about Christmas, they would say that the purpose is for Santa to bring them lots of presents - nothing about Christ, and that is all they cared about.

Kids are also much more enthusiastic in relgious services. I know that I was. I also really liked Hebrew school at first.

Then I got older. A lot of it stopped making any sense - did it ever make any sense? Services quickly became huge bores where I would yawn all throughout and just think about leaving.

I saw the truth, that I had basically been lied to from birth. I left right after my bar-mitzvah, which was a required thing. I've been to mayeb 4 or 5 services since then, and that was over 2 years ago. Quit hebrew school - started to hate that.

I noticed a pattern that a ton of the people in my hebrew school also quit and rarely attended services. My brother did the same thing.

My Christian friends do the same thing. I guess they go along with their communions or whatever it is - then they never show up. Many "christian" friends I have never go to Church and dread going - they find it a boring waste of a sunday. I know tons of ex-christians in my own grade. I guess they didn't like that huge amount of joy they got as Christians?

This proves my point that as you get older, you get smarter, wiser, you begin to QUESTION (which is a good thing), and reject a lot of things that don't make sense to you.

Nowadays only a few cling on - in my whole grade (full of well over 500 ppl), there is only a dozen or less people that I know of that are religious christians. That's great - they are nice people, good friends, and they don't bother me with their religion.

I'd say majority of my school is agnostic or athiest.

I predict that when my generation reaches adulthood - there will be a big decrease in religion. Now more and more kids are raised atheist.

Santa Claus is just a modernized fictional version of St Nicholas....I'm not sure exactly how the Easter Bunny came to be but it is alittle silly seeing how can a bunny can relate to the great mystery of Easter ( which by the way is named after a pagan goddess of Spring if I remember correctly) The Church refers to the mystery of Easter as the Paschal Mystery and I beleive that in French Easter is called Pasque (I probably spelled it wrong )
anywho, yes I agree that more and more people are raising their children to be agnonstic or atheist . Most Christians that I know certainly drift away from going to Church and stuff during their early 20s and even into their 30s....but most come back to it once they have kids of their own (a poor excuse in my opinion seeing s you should come back to God for yourself not just becasue you want your kids to believe)