07-29-2003, 04:41 PM | #1861 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
However, I would also say it's reasonable to assume that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator would design his creations (us ) in such a way that they would be able to comprehend SOME of the divine, since I'm sure He knew, before He created us, how He planned to reveal Himself to us - through the Bible and creation and His Son. My kids can't comprehend all that I do, but just because that is true, does not mean that they cannot comprehend SOME of what I do, or SOME LEVEL of the more complex things I do. Does that make sense, IRex? Do you agree?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
07-29-2003, 04:49 PM | #1862 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
And I just thought of another analogy - many of you know that I worked in military radar for 10 years. And in that field, the intelligent designers intentionally design the receivers to receive the signal that they know they'll be sending thru the transmitter. IOW, the transmitter will send a signal with certain characteristics, including frequency. It doesn't make any sense to design a receiver intended to receive a signal in the X-band range in such a way that it only can see S-band signals. No, an intelligent designer would design a receiver to match the intended signal.
And also, BTW, receivers do not receive the entire signal - only a small portion. But the transmitter designers take that into account, and make sure that the signal is such that the receiver gets enough information to make an informed decision. And that's your course on radar for the day!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-29-2003, 05:02 PM | #1863 | ||
Dead
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: on the floor, under the table, just to your left, your other left
Posts: 1,486
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
How to Survive the Sillmarillion I thought that Alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do. I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze. But now I know that there's a time and there's a place where I can choose To walk the fine line between self control and self abuse. "Lacerations make complications, but welts go away in a day." |
||
07-29-2003, 05:22 PM | #1864 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
No, I don't go on the RPG forum - I already spend too much time on the Moot on the other forums, and RPG's look fun but time-consuming.
Don't theologists usually specialize in a particular theology? Or do you want to study a bit of everything?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-29-2003, 05:24 PM | #1865 |
Dead
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: on the floor, under the table, just to your left, your other left
Posts: 1,486
|
Theologists can study a particular religion, but I wanna study all of them.
You can actually take classes in compearitive religion in collage.
__________________
How to Survive the Sillmarillion I thought that Alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do. I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze. But now I know that there's a time and there's a place where I can choose To walk the fine line between self control and self abuse. "Lacerations make complications, but welts go away in a day." |
07-29-2003, 07:44 PM | #1866 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
We may have something in us that allows us to tap into something “divine” in some way but I don’t think its as it was written in the bible. I think the bible (and christianty in general) reflects the biological predisposition to understanding something beyond our abilities. Perhaps this is innate. Perhaps this is even prewired but I don’t know how. But its not a case where every word in a book written by humans happens to be the exact way the divine is supposed to be understood. Christianty is simply one human translation (ad lib) of something beyond our grasp. Something shimmering and ancient and somehow familiar but unidentifiable. For hundreds of thousands of years shamans and witch doctors, druids and high priests, clerics and lamas, and religious men of every cloth and every culture have strove to get their minds to the point where the divine begins. What has resulted is religions and cults and theological disciplines of every conceivable shape and form. Christianity just happens to be one. The truth is bigger then all of them however. But like Jack Nicholson says YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! Because our mind was never made to even approach such a thing. And that’s all you can say.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
07-29-2003, 08:06 PM | #1867 | |
Dead
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: on the floor, under the table, just to your left, your other left
Posts: 1,486
|
Quote:
Did that make sense? I usually don't debate like this.
__________________
How to Survive the Sillmarillion I thought that Alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do. I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze. But now I know that there's a time and there's a place where I can choose To walk the fine line between self control and self abuse. "Lacerations make complications, but welts go away in a day." |
|
07-29-2003, 10:01 PM | #1868 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Let's say we all guess at the colour of a marble in a box. Some say red, some blue, some green etc. (some even say there is no marble ) To make it an even closer analogy let's say we all look at it through a different coloured lens (including one that shows there is nothing in the box), so we all claim that we are right and everyone else is wrong. Now, when we open the box, we might find that one of us is right; we might find that all of us were wrong i.e. it might be a colour that nobody guessed. But it is not necessarily the case that everyone is wrong simply because we a)disagree and b) each claim to be right. Unless you're Insidious Rex; then you open the box and find an elephant
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
07-29-2003, 10:05 PM | #1869 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
1. 1 is smaller than 10, and 10 is smaller than infinity. 2. 1 is a subset of 10, and 10 is a subset of infinity. 3. 1 means "a single item" in the set of 1 to 10, and 1 means "a single item" in the set of 1 to infinity. God says in the Bible that He is just. We know what "just" means, altho we cannot fully comprehend every aspect of God's character, and even the fullness of "just"ness. But we can comprehend a part of His character, and a part of just-ness, and the part is consistant with the whole.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
07-29-2003, 10:29 PM | #1870 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
07-29-2003, 10:30 PM | #1871 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
BTW, shouldn't that be theologians, not theologists?
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
07-29-2003, 10:41 PM | #1872 | ||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
EDIT: by the way those three points dont really apply to infinity (just like our analogies dont apply to a creater force) because infinity is an unbounded quantity and not a real number like 1 or 10. therefor you cant really do rational comparisons with infinity and other numbers. Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 07-29-2003 at 10:50 PM. |
||||
07-29-2003, 11:20 PM | #1873 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
What I'm saying is that GIVEN the Bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient, and GIVEN the Bible says that God says we can know Him at some level, and GIVEN that the Bible says that God created us, THEREFORE it is reasonable to assume that God created us in a way to carry out His statement that we can know Him at some level. Is that better? ps - I like your marble analogy.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
07-30-2003, 01:17 AM | #1874 | |||
Dead
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: on the floor, under the table, just to your left, your other left
Posts: 1,486
|
Quote:
Quote:
Or maybe it is every color you guessed and still empty. Or maybe there is a different box inside for each person. "Or maybe we need a new dog. Or maybe we need a CAT! (Growl, bark, bite, ow, crash)" Quote:
Also, most religions say that if you belive in any other religion you are doomed. God gave us the power to choose, and then punishes us for choosing wrong? Where does the whole "Great Forgiver" part come in? That is why I don't identify with a single religion while still beliving.
__________________
How to Survive the Sillmarillion I thought that Alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do. I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze. But now I know that there's a time and there's a place where I can choose To walk the fine line between self control and self abuse. "Lacerations make complications, but welts go away in a day." Last edited by Katt_knome_hobbit : 07-30-2003 at 01:21 AM. |
|||
07-30-2003, 08:59 AM | #1875 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
Quote:
|
|
07-30-2003, 10:09 AM | #1876 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
||
07-30-2003, 10:13 AM | #1877 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
*Read some of the posts concerning kids and religion, not all*
Maybe it has to do with the fact that younger children are very open, programmable ppl. Almost everything you tell them they will believe. I have experienced this with many yougner kids, including my cousin (who is 5 or 6 now, something like that). Now she seems to question what we tell her if it is something conflicting, but for the most part she still accepts most everything we say - no question. Tell her something unbelieveable and she usually will believe it. Little kids are taken into religions and they just absorb it. It becomes so programmed into them that it is hard to get it out, hence the brainwashing. Kids are dragged into temples or churches from little kids, told silly things and they usually believe them for life. It was hard for me to get out of that - I usually find myself saying God a lot.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
07-30-2003, 10:33 AM | #1878 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
When you tell little kids about religion they often just accept it - no question. Don't be all "oh this kid asked this question." Sometimes kids will ask questions about the stories or something that doesn't make sense to them (it should be the whole religion),but that is only a few people, not most.
Do you see my point? Let's discuss Christian lies: Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. What's up with that? Just to prove my point, convienantly, placed in with the ludicrous stories of god are more ludicrous stories about a fat guy delivering presents and a big bunny delivering presents and eggs. Kids believe that NO QUESTION. EVEN I believed in these for a tiny bit and I wasn't even Christian - shows just how strong this lie is. Another case in point: tooth fairy. i believed in her the most - came to my senses around end of elementary school I believe. I stopped believing those in early elementary school, but I had friends that still believed in Santa well into MIDDLE SCHOOL. I was always trying to talk my Christian friends out of them, but they wouldn't listen. When I FIANLLY convinced a friend that Santa was not real, he still insisted that the Easter Bunny was real, *sigh* Of course this was all because they sent their presents over to our house and did all sorts of trickery to keep this up What is up with that? I know for a fact that many Christian friends I had in elementary school and even in middle school thought two main big ppl in their religion were Santa and the Easter Bunny. GULLIBILITY. If you asked them about Christmas, they would say that the purpose is for Santa to bring them lots of presents - nothing about Christ, and that is all they cared about. Kids are also much more enthusiastic in relgious services. I know that I was. I also really liked Hebrew school at first. Then I got older. A lot of it stopped making any sense - did it ever make any sense? Services quickly became huge bores where I would yawn all throughout and just think about leaving. I saw the truth, that I had basically been lied to from birth. I left right after my bar-mitzvah, which was a required thing. I've been to mayeb 4 or 5 services since then, and that was over 2 years ago. Quit hebrew school - started to hate that. I noticed a pattern that a ton of the people in my hebrew school also quit and rarely attended services. My brother did the same thing. My Christian friends do the same thing. I guess they go along with their communions or whatever it is - then they never show up. Many "christian" friends I have never go to Church and dread going - they find it a boring waste of a sunday. I know tons of ex-christians in my own grade. I guess they didn't like that huge amount of joy they got as Christians? This proves my point that as you get older, you get smarter, wiser, you begin to QUESTION (which is a good thing), and reject a lot of things that don't make sense to you. Nowadays only a few cling on - in my whole grade (full of well over 500 ppl), there is only a dozen or less people that I know of that are religious christians. That's great - they are nice people, good friends, and they don't bother me with their religion. I'd say majority of my school is agnostic or athiest. I predict that when my generation reaches adulthood - there will be a big decrease in religion. Now more and more kids are raised atheist.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
07-30-2003, 10:43 AM | #1879 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
Quote:
|
|
07-30-2003, 10:49 AM | #1880 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
Quote:
anywho, yes I agree that more and more people are raising their children to be agnonstic or atheist . Most Christians that I know certainly drift away from going to Church and stuff during their early 20s and even into their 30s....but most come back to it once they have kids of their own (a poor excuse in my opinion seeing s you should come back to God for yourself not just becasue you want your kids to believe) |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Whats on your Bookshelf? | hectorberlioz | General Literature | 135 | 02-12-2007 07:26 PM |
The Order of The Blue Flame Discussion Thread | zavron | RPG Forum | 9 | 01-01-2003 02:13 PM |
The Dreams Discussion Thread | zavron | RPG Forum | 7 | 01-01-2003 02:03 PM |
The Conspiracies! (TOC vs. DC!) Discussion thread | Duddun | RPG Forum | 11 | 12-27-2002 04:19 PM |
Y2K: a "what if" thread | Darth Tater | General Messages | 10 | 03-04-2001 03:06 PM |