Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Ruinel]

*sigh* I gave you the logical proofs already. *is too tired to continue today*

[Rían]

No, I'm talking about formal logical proofs. You've given me your opinion, which is different. I think there is logical thinking behind your opinion, but one cannot formally, logically prove what you were claiming to prove. That was my point.


**EDIT** - I don't mean to say we're getting into formal logical proofs here, just that what you're claiming can't be "logically proved", altho you can hold a logical opinion on it.

ps - I think I know why you're tired -- put on your skivvies and run around!

[Lizra]

Did anyone else find that totally confusing! I need Anduril!

[Rían]

I think I'm gonna run off to see a movie with my husband - see if Orli still looks like an elf in "Pirates" - maybe I'll speak more clearly tomorrow!

[GrayMouser]

I'm gonna have to agree with Lief here-

In this claim he's not saying that he can prove his religion is true by logic; he's saying that since different religions say mutually contradictory things they cannot all be true.

Further, I don't think is he claiming that any one of them is (logically) necessarily true; they may all be false ( as we atheists believe); for that matter they may all be false and atheism may be wrong as well- the Truth may not yet be known, or indeed it may be Unknowable.

[HOBBIT]

Lief of course I understand where you are coming from - that doesn't make it any better and I still find christians to be offensive (when they are promoting their religion and still find them to be arrogant. i already understood that Christians felt their religion to be absolute truth, hence the arrogance).

Of course, where do the different denominations of Chrstianity fit in? It's all the same to me, but not to Christians I suppose. Christians believe that Christianity as a whole is the superior religion, but what about denominations? Do Catholics believe that their wey is right and Protestants will go to hell or what? Just curious.

Yes, I know this is a religion topic so of course there will be Christians here promoting thier religion :P

I was just saying what I found irritating in general, you know ? Like in the past there have been really in your face irritating Christians on this board. Luckily they have since left.......

Religious Sigs are annoying - but I just ignore them

Of course if I just met someone and they were an 'in your face Christian," that would be a big turnoff. Glad I don't really know any of those ppl. I know several devout Christians, but they don't bother anyone with it - as it should be.

Unrelated topic:
I accidently ate pork today! now i really feel sick. I never kept kosher, but I always stayed away from pork, ham, bacon, and other pig products - but mainly because Pigs have always been my favorite animals - and they are also the smartest animal next to primates and dolphins i believe - yes smarter and better than stupid dogs and cats. In over 15 years I have managed to stay away from eating pigs - i am sure that I never have, until now that is grr stupid free sample - should have told me.

er that sort of related to religions - i broke kosher (not that i ever kept to the other rules, not even sure what they all are)

[Rían]

Oh, too bad about the pork, Hobbit - it's one thing to decide to do certain things, but a bummer if you decide to not do something then unintentionally/accidentally do it.

wow, I better go to bed - I'm having trouble wording things tonite!

"Pirates" was really fun, tho - I kept expecting Orli to say "Aragorn! Over here!" Jonny Depp was hysterical - a perfect mindless summer movie.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Lief of course I understand where you are coming from - that doesn't make it any better and I still find christians to be offensive (when they are promoting their religion and still find them to be arrogant. i already understood that Christians felt their religion to be absolute truth, hence the arrogance).

Of course, where do the different denominations of Chrstianity fit in? It's all the same to me, but not to Christians I suppose. Christians believe that Christianity as a whole is the superior religion, but what about denominations? Do Catholics believe that their wey is right and Protestants will go to hell or what? Just curious.

Catholics don't beleive that all Protestants go to hell....although you will always get extreme people in all faiths saying that NO other way is possible to to go to heaven....I don't deny that I know some protestants and catholics who think this...I don't, and the Church doesn't teach that...I know, I know, all the persecution during the Reformation suggests otherwise...but I think that was just a matter of the people themselves who didn't like the fact that the Church was splitting up not the actual doctrine of the Church which has never changed since it started

[Silme*Christian]

Hello everyone. If I posted this in the Happy Thread, then everyone would snuff me, so I want to post it here: I am happy cause I learned a lot about Jesus and His Father in Heaven! And I made a comitment to Him to remain pure! "For those who are pure in heart, the King shall evermore favour them."

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Further, I don't think is he claiming that any one of them is (logically) necessarily true; they may all be false ( as we atheists believe); for that matter they may all be false and atheism may be wrong as well- the Truth may not yet be known, or indeed it may be Unknowable.

and THATS where we agnostics come in! mathmatically the most likely scenerio by far if you ask me. I mean what are the chances of our human mind comprehending the infinite scope of the divine? or being able to prove that there cant BE a divine. silly people...

but on a related note i assume christians (and probably other religions) cant accept the idea that all religions and much philosophical thinking perhaps reflects not so much some literal and highly specific truth but actually a broader reflection of something more innate and harder to grasp. Many religions are similar enough in their scope and ideals to be kind of a human reflection of something beyond our grasp. So we create these religions to allow us to sort of tap into that source the best way we can. Perhaps the divine is beyond our comprehension and we strive always to translate it to our limited understanding. Perhaps religion is simply a vehicle to a much greater truth that we cant ever know.

[Ruinel]

Silme... no one is going to snuff you in the Happy thread, quit spamming.

Sorry about the pork, HOBBIT. I don't eat pork as a rule either.
__________________________________________________
There is no way to logically prove any belief system. BUT...

{Buddhism is the only exception to the following, that I know of.}

#1) all religions believe that they are the true religion of their god
#2) all sects of religions believe they are following the correct doctrine of their worship of said god
#3) all religions believe that other religions are false.
#4) all religions pray to a god, not necessarily the same god.
#5) all religions believe they pray to the correct and true god
#6) all religions have been involved in wars for the sake of their religions, though their own doctrine forbids the killing of other people.
#7) the people of a religion believe that through faithful adherence to the doctrine of their religion and religious leaders, they will reap a reward after they die, and the nonbelievers (other religions) will either be given a far lesser reward or will suffer upon their death for their lack of faith in the true god.

We can say that the truth of a religion is a perspective held only by the followers of that religion. Because no religion can be held universally correct, therefore all religions are false.

[Rían]

Silme - good for you! You won't regret that commitment - it's well worth it

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Silme - good for you! You won't regret that commitment - it's well worth it

it is indeed, but a very difficult one so I wish you the best Silme in doing so

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

Wow. This thread is really long.

I just wanna say, Yay for Religion! I'm gonna be a theologist when I grow up.

Are the majority of people in this thread Christian?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Because no religion can be held universally correct, therefore all religions are false.

um, sorry, but your "because" does not match your "therefore", IMO. I don't agree that your conclusion is a logical deduction from your premise, because the universality of a religion does NOT reflect on its whether or not it's the truth.

For example, I think that the vast majority of Tolkien fans that have read the Sil think would say that Fingon is Gil-Galad's father, but you and I, Ruinel, know that that was something that Christopher Tolkien wrote, and Tolkien's last word on the subject was that his father was Orodreth. Does majority opinion make something right? No.

*stops to sing "Gil-Galad was an Elven King, of him the harpers sadly sing, the last whose realm was fair and free, between the mountains and the sea ...."*

A religion either does or does not reflect the truth; right? Whether or not it is universally thought to reflect the truth is irrelevant.

I agree with your opening statement, tho - "There is no way to logically prove any belief system." That's why we need to use other methods of evaluation.

And I also disagree with your #6. How can this be right? If you look into it, as far as Christianity at least, it's "no murder", which is different from killing in war situations and even self-defense situations.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
it is indeed, but a very difficult one ....

Yes, it is certainly difficult - but many great goods are achieved thru difficulty. But they're worth it! And it helps to make up your mind ahead of time. Also to decide to NOT change that decision in the middle of a tempting situation, but only when you're able to think clearly and calmly.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Katt_knome_hobbit
Wow. This thread is really long.

I just wanna say, Yay for Religion! I'm gonna be a theologist when I grow up.

Are the majority of people in this thread Christian?

what religion do you belong to Katt_knome_hobbit?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, it is certainly difficult - but many great goods are achieved thru difficulty. But they're worth it! And it helps to make up your mind ahead of time. Also to decide to NOT change that decision in the middle of a tempting situation, but only when you're able to think clearly and calmly.

oh I completely agree! I think the most important thing to do is to avoid tempting situations to begin with, because before you know it, you're in too deep and it's very hard to pull yourself out

[Rían]

Originally posted by Katt_knome_hobbit
Wow. This thread is really long.

I just wanna say, Yay for Religion! I'm gonna be a theologist when I grow up.

Are the majority of people in this thread Christian?

I'm a Christian - Yay for God!

Let's see - on this page, Arien and Silme and I are Christian. Lief Erikson is too - he's on the previous page, I think.

I remember your name, Katt, but I haven't seen you for a long time - have you been gone for awhile, or do we just post on different threads?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
um, sorry, but your "because" does not match your "therefore", IMO. I don't agree that your conclusion is a logical deduction from your premise, because the universality of a religion does NOT reflect on its whether or not it's the truth.
...
A religion either does or does not reflect the truth; right? Whether or not it is universally thought to reflect the truth is irrelevant.

I agree with your opening statement, tho - "There is no way to logically prove any belief system." That's why we need to use other methods of evaluation....

These are your opinions, and not fact. NO offense intended.

The point I was making is that all religions claim to hold the REAL TRUTH. If they are all different, then that claim is false. Therefore, all religions are false and not true.