Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Lizra]

Right On HOBBIT!

I feel good knowing I'm not basing my life on false hopes! I've accepted things as they seem to be, and I'm ok with it! No pie in the sky for me......" The Joys of Being Real"!?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
so then you are saying homosexuality is NOT a choice but its still a sin.

No, you're taking out a very important word from my sentence - tendencies.

And BTW, there's another way your Asian analogy breaks down - Asians don't have Asian tendencies - they just ARE Asian.

* debating whether or not to say something about asian babies *

Aiee! I'll never live that one down!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
Depends on how you define happiness! Aren't you doing it (grabbing the happy ) because being a good Christian makes you happy?

Originally posted by Ruinel
Very good point, Lizra.

That's why I like Lizra around in discussions!


Anyway, I think it was pretty evident that I meant happiness at the expense of others.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel

What is more offensive? The person who tells others that they 'think that many non-Christians just don't realize the incredible joy that Christians have in their relationship with God' to a non-Christian? (I know that you don't mean to offend, RÃ*an.) Or is it the person who points out the truth, that Christian joy is not superior to other joys, nor religions?

I know that it is a difference of opinion. RÃ*an, you get a lot of happiness from your faith, and that is fine. I'm not telling you that you are misguided. If it makes you happy, then by all means, continue it to your dying day.

But don't tell me that what I believe to be truth is wrong. To understand that we are without a protector, a god, is uplifting and liberating to me. To know that we stand on this planet beholden to each other only, is a great comfort to me. [/B]

OK, Ruinel, I see a logical discrepency here. You tell me "But don't tell me that what I believe to be truth is wrong", but that's right after YOU tell ME "the truth, that Christian joy is not superior to other joys, nor religions" - IOW, YOU'RE telling me that I'M wrong! That's a double standard, isn't it?

Please go ahead and tell me if you think I'm wrong (or right ) in my opinions. I appreciate people speaking their truthful opinions. It's rather hard to have an intelligent conversation without that. But I will also share what I think is true, regardless of if you agree with it or not. And I choose to share my opinion with consideration and kindness, like you do. And we can both discuss issues as long as it is interesting/enjoyable, then quit when it isn't. That's the point of intelligent conversation, IMO.

I could be wrong, but I think you generally don't object to me, personally, and the way I discuss things; is that right? I think you object to the Christians (or anyone else, for that matter) who just hop into the conversations with sweeping statements made all in caps declaring anyone with different opinions is totally wrong (or anyone who declares people to be "brainwashed" when the accused person has made a lot of detailed and thought-out posts, altho they have a different opinion than the accuser *sad look at Hobbit* ) I know that I really cringe when the caps-lock people come on and start flailing around, not caring who is getting hit. I don't think Jesus worked that way - if He did, the Gospels would be extremely short. I think Jesus always showed great respect for the people around Him, and that's what I try to do. The ones that He really blew up at were the hypocrites. He talked to women in a time when women were really considered lower-class citizens. He basically talked to whoever wanted to talk, regardless of what the "good" people or society thought. And I think that's right - people should do what they think is right and good, even if it may not be popular.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble a bit - just some things I was thinking that I wanted to share... I respect your opinion and believe that you sincerely think it to be the truth. I have some sincere (and different) opinions on what I think is the truth. I think you're wrong in some areas, like you think I'm wrong in some areas, but that doesn't affect my friendship with you.

It looks like everyone's pretty much at that deadlock point in this particular discussion, tho.

[HOBBIT]

Hey, being brainwashed doesn't mean that you can't make detailed, well thoughtout posts.

Don't be sad rian. *Gives rian a big hug*

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

And I won't address the rest of your post until you answer my question to you about divorce, which I asked first

About why quote from Luke?

It was more straightforward; didn't have the "fornication" clause

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

And BTW, there's another way your Asian analogy breaks down - Asians don't have Asian tendencies - they just ARE Asian.

[/B]

If someone asked me, I wouldn't say I have heterosexual tendencies, I'd say I was a heterosexual. Likewise for most homosexuals, though some (Gore Vidal for example) disagree.

Interestingly most studies show that males tend to be very strongly oriented as either straight or gay (very few true bisexuals), while women are not so polarised.

As for whose beliefs make them happier, unless someone has a patented Joy-o-meter, I think we'll have to let it go.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
About why quote from Luke?

It was more straightforward; didn't have the "fornication" clause

AaaaHH! I mean Mark

[Silme*Christian]

Hey, you little spammer! You're in the wrong thread!

Well, sorry, I was just sooo happy! And still am! Nobody can take that away from me, even if you PM me a death threat!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B]...You tell me "But don't tell me that what I believe to be truth is wrong", but that's right after YOU tell ME "the truth, that Christian joy is not superior to other joys, nor religions" - IOW, YOU'RE telling me that I'M wrong! That's a double standard, isn't it?

I was pointing out that neither side had been more offensive than the other.

But you are wrong to say that Christian joy is superior to the joy of other religions. (Don't worry, this does not affect how I feel about you either.) Don't you feel that those people who worship other religions can also find the same joy in their form of worship? Or do you think that they are disillusioned and mistaken, and that only Christians can feel true joy?

It brings me to another of the many irritating questions (besides the "why doesn't god love the children who get kidnapped by the pedophile one", which we never addressed) I would bring up to the priests or nuns at my school when I was just a kid. "There are so many people in the world that are not Catholic, or that are not Christian. Does this mean that none of them go to heaven?"

I don't object to the way you discuss things. I object to anyone jumping into the conversation and making the general statement that THIS IS THE WAY GOD WANTS IT or THIS IS THE PLAN OF GOD FOR ALL OF US, etc. It's a very empty statement for me because there is no god. I could very well jump in and say: TIGGER WANTS YOU TO SEND ME $100 RIGHT NOW! ITS HIS DIVINE PLAN FOR US! It would be just as ridiculous to me, either way.

I believe that a man named Jesus existed and he brought a message to the people that, even to this day, is widely ignored. However, I do not think he was the son of a god/ messiah/ whatever.

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Well, sorry, I was just sooo happy! And still am! Nobody can take that away from me, even if you PM me a death threat!

*pm's death threat* (just joking) There's a 'happy' thread where you can post all your happy thoughts, Silme.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
TIGGER WANTS YOU TO SEND ME $100 RIGHT NOW! ITS HIS DIVINE PLAN FOR US!

oh... well if Tigger said it it must be true. i will obey. whats your address?

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Hey, being brainwashed doesn't mean that you can't make detailed, well thoughtout posts.

*looks around with glazed eyes* h uu hhhh?

Don't be sad rian. *Gives rian a big hug*

Thank you very much, Hobbit *Gives big hug back*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh... well if Tigger said it it must be true. i will obey. whats your address?

Ruinel the Elf
c/o Dante Alighieri
666 Underworld Avenue
Inferno, Divine Comedy 1265-1321

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I was pointing out that neither side had been more offensive than the other.

But you are wrong to say that Christian joy is superior to the joy of other religions. (Don't worry, this does not affect how I feel about you either.) Don't you feel that those people who worship other religions can also find the same joy in their form of worship? Or do you think that they are disillusioned and mistaken, and that only Christians can feel true joy?

I don't believe these nonChristians all feel disillusioned and mistaken. Some of them do, but the majority of them probably feel comfortable in their religion and in their current life. They feel comfortable that way simply because they have not experienced what it is like to leave that state and live in Christ.

Originally posted by Ruinel
It brings me to another of the many irritating questions (besides the "why doesn't god love the children who get kidnapped by the pedophile one", which we never addressed) I would bring up to the priests or nuns at my school when I was just a kid. "There are so many people in the world that are not Catholic, or that are not Christian. Does this mean that none of them go to heaven?"

No one who is not repentant of their sins will go to heaven, and no one who does not receive God's forgiveness.

Having said that, let me go on. It says in the Bible that no one can come to the Father except Jesus. Moses and Elijah lived before Christ was born, and yet they ascended to heaven. Thus, apparently some people can come to heaven through Christ without knowing him personally.

Also, there is a scripture that says "He who sins knowingly will be beaten with many blows, but him who sins unknowingly will be beaten with few blows." And it is written that the punishment of the one who knows the truth and turns away will be far greater than that for he who never heard it. There is also the fact that some people are punished more in hell than others, and some people in heaven receive greater rewards than others. God is just.

The pedophile question is less easy for me to address. I could, but I haven't read "The Problem of Pain," in a while, and I could do with a review. I used to discuss this subject, but I think I've forgotten some of my opinions on it , so I'd better leave it to RÃ*an.

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't object to the way you discuss things. I object to anyone jumping into the conversation and making the general statement that THIS IS THE WAY GOD WANTS IT or THIS IS THE PLAN OF GOD FOR ALL OF US, etc. It's a very empty statement for me because there is no god. I could very well jump in and say: TIGGER WANTS YOU TO SEND ME $100 RIGHT NOW! ITS HIS DIVINE PLAN FOR US! It would be just as ridiculous to me, either way.

If you don't accept God's existence, then how can you accept any explanation for God's behavior in these areas? You've asked a question that involves doctrine, a question that assumes God exists. Thus, you must continue to allow that God exists for both question and answer to make sense.

Doesn't mean you have to believe it, but you have to accept it as a postulate in the answer to your question.

Originally posted by Ruinel
I believe that a man named Jesus existed and he brought a message to the people that, even to this day, is widely ignored. However, I do not think he was the son of a god/ messiah/ whatever.

Sorry, this might come across as somewhat insulting, and I don't want to bug you. However . . . if you really wanted to know whether Jesus was Christ or not, you wouldn't have thrown away "The Case for Christ," would you have?

I know, it was trash to you, worthless. You weren't going to read it and had no inclination to, so there was no point in keeping it. However, it seems a little strange for you to make judgements on Christ when you're not willing to read the information provided by people who do believe in him. It's a case you cannot judge, or provide a verdict for. It's a jury providing their answer without watching the court case. You have to be sure you know what is said before you can judge whether it's true or not. Even with something that seems so ridiculous to you as Christianity.

[HOBBIT]

Thank you Lief, you just proved my point :P

[Lief Erikson]

Glad you're happy. What was your point?

[HOBBIT]

oh nothing. just found your post very .... interesting.


What is with that Christian attitude man? Don't say all religions have it, because they don't.

I'm getting all these vibes of "our religion is the best and everyone else is wrong, they have not experienced joy, they suck" ... well maybe in other words, but that is the gist of it, no?

I have found it in many examples of Christian postings on this board - and I'll tell you that I find it highly irritating. Even if you think this way, you should maybe keep it to yourself?

They feel comfortable that way simply because they have not experienced what it is like to leave that state and live in Christ.

I realize that that is your opinion, but I am disturbed by it.

What is wrong with being more accepting of other faiths and other lifestyles?

[Hemel]

from HOBBIT
I'm getting all these vibes of "our religion is the best and everyone else is wrong, they have not experienced joy, they suck" ... well maybe in other words, but that is the gist of it, no?

I'm just a dabbler on the edges of things. But from the very little I know it seems to me that different religions can bring different feelings. Certainly in Christianity there's a joy, and even just from dipping one toe in I've experienced that. Also a great release.

Christianity, in what it teaches, is unique. That doesn't mean that other faiths and other lifestyles can't be accepted. It does mean though that to the Christian they just aren't the same. Further, because Christianity does teach just the one way it's completely consistent for a Christian to suggest that other ways are not the way. I don't think that that's a question of superiority feelings though. I think, from the Christians (orthodox) that I've spoken to it's just a feeling of sadness that others won't share in what they believe are the great rewards and joys to come, from aligning with God and accepting Jesus as saviour, and a desire to lead them to that.

I'm probably all wrong - as I say, I don't know much. But provided I've understood correctly the little I know then from that I don't find the Christian attitude upsetting or offensive ... just understandable.

[HOBBIT]

Sorry, but in what way is Christianity extremely unique in what it teaches?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
oh nothing. just found your post very .... interesting.


What is with that Christian attitude man? Don't say all religions have it, because they don't.

I'm getting all these vibes of "our religion is the best and everyone else is wrong, they have not experienced joy, they suck" ... well maybe in other words, but that is the gist of it, no?

I have found it in many examples of Christian postings on this board - and I'll tell you that I find it highly irritating. Even if you think this way, you should maybe keep it to yourself?



I realize that that is your opinion, but I am disturbed by it.

What is wrong with being more accepting of other faiths and other lifestyles?

Thanks for posting this good response to my question .

There's one thing I'd like to state first, before answering this. I know a large number of nonChristians, and I don't go out of my way to convert them all. I have been discussing and debating in the religion topics of Entmoot, but it is to there that I confine what I have said on these topics. Whenever someone shows a real interest or it comes up in conversation, I will let them become aware of my position, and if they want to discuss it further, I'll be delighted to. Also, if it is necessary for a specific conversation, I'll address it. But I will not press my case on an unwilling audience.

I'm about to discuss the question in detail. If you want to skip reading through this long argument, see the first post on the next page, where I use a small story to illustrate my point.

Okay, let's go through this issue logically. The case is "Is it arrogant to say that Christianity is the only way and everyone else is going to hell, or is wrong?"

I'll do my best to respond to you. I probably in my first paragraph already addressed what you said about how you present this seemingly arrogant view, but I'd like to try my hand at working you out of it anyway. I'm going to try using logic.


Not all religions can possibly be correct. The different religions go against each other in many different areas. We can't have "My truth," and "your truth," existing at the same time. There is only "The truth." There is only one way things are. 1=1, no other number does. So all parts of all religions that don't conform to the one real truth are lies. If there isn't any one real truth that can be gained from the spiritual, then almost all parts of all religions are lies. Lies that might or might not be beneficial to man.

But it is not arrogant to claim that there is only one truth. There has to be only one truth. One cannot say "I think that science is right and everything's chance," right before you say, "I think that science is right and everything's designed," and be speaking truth each time.

Thus, it is simply a matter of whether or not Christianity is a part of this absolute truth, or whether or not any religion is. How can we know?

There we seem to be getting into the realm of apologetics.

However, the main points I cover in this post are in answer to your question about being accepting of other people's beliefs and religions. Absolute truth exists, so many religions in their important essentials are wrong. Nearly all monotheistic religions disagree with each other in important facts. All monotheistic religions disagree with all many god religions. These views contradict each other, no matter what way Hinduism and other religions that say "everyone's right," try to cut it. This is mere logic. No matter what you do, you cannot get away from nearly every religion being wrong.

One religion might be right. You might say, "But it might have been the Ancient Greeks; how do we know?"

But then it is no longer a question of arrogance, but of apologetics.