Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Ruinel]

I added more to it. I had originally forgotten your 'weee!' which I found hilarious.

BTW... I'll repost my edited question, b/c I don't think you saw it...
"errr... just currious IR, but you are saying that you are Italian and that people believe Italians to be liars? (first I've heard of this if that is what you are saying)"

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
IR and Ruinel - Instead of quoting from both of your posts, because it will get too messy, I'll just try to clarify what I meant by what I said: 'there is no such thing as a "friendly warm happy healthy" homosexual relationship. And monogamy in homosexual relationships, by all accounts I've read, is rare.'

The first sentence:

It just boils down to a difference of opinion - in MY opinion, homosexual behavior is a sin; in YOURS, it's perfectly fine (and we'll just make it easy and say we're talking about homosexual behavior between consenting adults). For a person (like me) that believes that (1) the Bible is the word of God, and (2) God is all-knowing, all-wise, and the very definition of love, then it follows that ANY sinful behavior, including homosexual behavior, is harmful - at the MINIMUM, only to the individual involved, but more often to others around the individual, too.

Now that's NOT saying that homosexuals are never happy, etc. I think it's pretty safe to say that there are some homosexuals that are happier than some heterosexuals (of course, "happiness" is a hard thing to measure - people hide things well, as is very apparent when, for example, a person unexpectedly commits suicide). Happiness depends upon many things. One thing is how much in line you are with the way that our Creator intended us to live. I would say that a homosexual that in every other way except his/her sex life lives up to God's guidelines is probably happier than a heterosexual who is habitually involved in many other sins.

Have to weigh in and disagree here, Rian.

"...no such thing as a 'friendly, warm, happy, healthy homosexual relationship".

Friendly, happy, and warm simply describe the subjective feelings of the person involved- if someone (honestly) tells you "I'm happy", to reply "you think you are happy but you're really not" is nonsensical- you may be mistaken about the cause of your happiness, but to say "I'm happy" (or sad, angry etc.) is to make an existential statement.

"Healthy" of course depends on the meaning that you put on it - if it means "emotionally healthy" than it fits into the category above.

So it doesn't boil down to a difference of opinion- you are making a statement about an objective, checkable fact. If we apply the same standards to homosexual and heterosexual couples, what you are saying is simply wrong- you yourself concede that gays may be in a happy relationship (and warm and friendly fall under the same heading).

Now, you may say that it is inherently harmful but to get a disinterested observer to agree with you that it is harmful in this life you have to show evidence.

Evidence against your argument?- well, after gay marriage was legalised in Canada ( "Proud to be Canadian" )- there were umpteen examples of couples who had been together for years joyously coming forward to proclaim their love and devotion (sniffle)

This is the same argument religious people use against non-believers-

"You may think you are quite happy and content with your disbelief, but really you're miserable because you're lacking faith"

"No, I actually feel fine ."

"No, you don't- you can't- you're not in tune with God's Creation!"

And of course it works equally (wrongly) the other way-

"You say you have faith, but of course you're just afraid to face reality without a crutch; your belief is just a cover for your own lack of self-worth"

So, just accept the fact that many of us sinners are actually quite happy in our sins, and will live our lives and and die contentedly in a state of delusion- though of course we will undoubtedly receive our just desserts in the Hereafter.
[

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
For RÃ*an:
May you rest, and you will be strong. In other words, get well soon.

Thanks

Actually, some of the Christians here have closed minded views and are unable to discuss their view/side without just saying "your wrong, period", or "I'll pray for you".

Yes, I agree. It's irritating for anyone to argue like that - there's no discussion involved. Now a discussion may come down to "well, I think this and you think that", but I think a subject should be able to be discussed, because a person should have thought about it and not mindlessly accepted an opinion.

Actually, there are very few of us compared to the number of Christians here. I know there are a few Agnostics as well here. Hmmm... so if there are only a few of us, that ups the odds that one of those obnoxious Atheists is .... me.

Well perhaps I'm just totally wrong as to percentages then You and IRex seem to think that there's more Christians. It doesn't even matter, though, it was only meant to be a simple, light observation, not a statement of fact.

Just off the top of my head (and in no particular order!), I count among those I like the best at Entmoot: YOU, Ruinel; SGH; Sheeana; Lizra; Cass; Starr; Eruviel G; Artanis; BabyK; Graymouser; IRex; JD; Lief; Gwaimir; Wayfarer; Coney (that's just a sample - I'm sure I've missed several - please just put it down to my aging brain!) Now of those 16, only 4 are Christians! So maybe it's just my particular group of friends that are more non-Christian, percentage-wise. Really, if you look at it, it's more a factor of age - I just have more in common with the older Mooters.

So no, Ruinel, I don't think you're obnoxious. You're one of those that I have a great affection for. (I think you're a bit "hasty" sometimes, but I don't see any meanness behind it - that's just your personality. We're all different, and it would be terribly boring if everyone were like me *yawn*) There's really only 2 people that I think have been obnoxious, and they're both guys. And actually I like both of them, too, but I think they just need to improve their manners. "Obnoxious" was probably too strong of a word.

(and no, I'm not telling who they are!!!! If anyone asks, my response will be "I have said that I will not comment on this.")

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
BTW... I'll repost my edited question, b/c I don't think you saw it...
"errr... just currious IR, but you are saying that you are Italian and that people believe Italians to be liars? (first I've heard of this if that is what you are saying)"

huh? oh no. i was just throwing out arbitrary descriptions for people that they really have no control over. I lump being Italian in there with being good at sports or having a photographic memory or being gay. none of them or choices. its just how they are. i wish i had some italian in me though. ive got just about everything else.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
[B]so what it boils down to is that the bible says homosexuality is a sin so that’s that. I guess Ive never been able to grasp this logic. Stealing being bad makes sense. Murdering being bad makes sense. Even coveting your neighbors wife (or daughter or sheep) can make sense to me sociologically. But just being a homosexual seems incredibly out of place in that line up and I don’t understand why Christians don’t say ok but why are we supposed to think its so evil?

No, IRex *sigh* - did you ever look at the links I posted to the homosexual thread? I gave some opinions as to the reasons why it's wrong. I'll try to find them for you.

and I would say that those poor Christians who happen to also be homosexuals are constantly plagued by self doubt and self hate for the very fact that their religious foundations are telling them oh its wrong and its sinning. And NOT because of some aspect intrinsic to being gay. That’s just silly. Gay is simply how they are. It would be the equivilant of something in the bible saying all Asians are sinners and do not deserve heaven. Well whats a Chinese Christian to do! They cannot just become a nice white European no matter how bad they may want to yet their religion is telling them if they don’t they are sinning. Now is it any mystery to you how people under this kind of permenant stress are going to have a higher degree of issues then people who are in the norm and fit with the bibles ideals?

I agree that someone has no choice as to their nationality. In a sense, I agree that someone doesn't have a choice about having homosexual tendencies, but only in the same way that I don't have a choice about having selfish tendencies.. IOW, one cannot choose one's particular sin nature. There is a big problem in your Asian analogy, tho - even if an Asian comes to a sincere and thoughtful decision that being Asian is wrong (and I obviously don't think it is! don't misquote me, anyone! ), the person cannot choose to NOT be Asian! However, if a person has homosexual tendencies, or selfish tendencies, and a person comes to a sincere and thoughtful decision that these tendencies are wrong, they can choose to not act on these tendencies!. Do you agree?

well see ive just never been able to accept the whole “because I said so� mentality and this is a perfect example of it. Because it says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin then we cannot question it. And that means that the homosexual lifestyle must be sinful and that means that it must be harmful since all sin is harmful. Well that’s just “I make the rules so there� logic to me. Doesn’t work for me at all. You could name any arbitrary thing and say it’s a sin and it would work the same way.

No, you can't "name any arbitrary thing and say it’s a sin" - that would be silly and pointless, IMO!! Things that are named to be a sin are named so because they are harmful. I'll try to find the link to where I discussed this.

but I separate lying from being gay. That’s the issue. Just as I separate lying from being Italian or being good at sports or having a photographic memory. Why do we only pick on being gay and not any of those other things?

I, at least, DON'T only pick on "being gay" - I've said over and over that it is only one of many sinful tendencies.

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
So, just accept the fact that many of us sinners are actually quite happy in our sins, and will live our lives and and die contentedly in a state of delusion- though of course we will undoubtedly receive our just desserts in the Hereafter.

Oh, I heartily agree that many sins are really, thoroughly fun and enjoyable! But "fun" is not the whole picture - I feel that the damages that always come with the fun far outweigh the fun in the long run.

And I won't address the rest of your post until you answer my question to you about divorce, which I asked first

[HOBBIT]

of course fun is the whole picture silly. If you don't enjoy life, then what?

[Rían]

For goodness' sake, I'm NOT saying to not enjoy life; I think there are many, many things to enjoy in life! I am saying that there is more than simple happiness to life. For example, eating ice cream might make you happy. Should you jump on some little kid and take away his ice cream cone if you want it? Should you eat ice cream all day long, every day? Is it a bad thing for you to buy an ice cream cone for someone you love, even though it means you get only 2 scoops yourself and not 3?

If fun is the whole picture, then Frodo and Sam were idiots.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
... It's irritating for anyone to argue like that - there's no discussion involved...but I think a subject should be able to be discussed, because a person should have thought about it and not mindlessly accepted an opinion.

I'm glad we agree on that.

Well perhaps I'm just totally wrong as to percentages then You and IRex seem to think that there's more Christians.

Ah, ok. It also may seem that there are more Christians than non-Christians here because of those that are so loud in their proclamation of it.

Just off the top of my head (and in no particular order!), I count among those I like the best at Entmoot: YOU, Ruinel;

Ah, shucks. *blushes*

... (1) Now of those 16, only 4 are Christians! So maybe it's just my particular group of friends that are more non-Christian, percentage-wise. (2)Really, if you look at it, it's more a factor of age - I just have more in common with the older Mooters.

(1)But there are many more Mooters that are not mentioned in that group that are Christians. (2)Ah, this makes sense... because I'm thousands of years old.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I agree that someone has no choice as to their nationality. In a sense, I agree that someone doesn't have a choice about having homosexual tendencies, but only in the same way that I don't have a choice about having selfish tendencies.. IOW, one cannot choose one's particular sin nature.

so then you are saying homosexuality is NOT a choice but its still a sin.

There is a big problem in your Asian analogy, tho - even if an Asian comes to a sincere and thoughtful decision that being Asian is wrong (and I obviously don't think it is! don't misquote me, anyone! )

* debating whether or not to say something about asian babies *

the person cannot choose to NOT be Asian! However, if a person has homosexual tendencies, or selfish tendencies, and a person comes to a sincere and thoughtful decision that these tendencies are wrong, they can choose to not act on these tendencies!. Do you agree?

I think an asian can CHOOSE not to ACT traditionally asian (whatever that means) and instead act very western and dress American and speak English that sort of thing. But he/she is STILL asian. Just like a homosexual can choose NOT to act as a homosexual (by engaging in homosexual sex) but he/she is STILL homosexual. The fact that they are either asian or homosexual is meaningless and neutral if you ask me. And we should no more condemn an asian for “acting asian� then we should condemn a homosexual for well doing homosexual things…

by the way, about the whole christian majority thing on the moot. perhaps the right way to put it is that christians seem to have a plurality here if not a majority. and its the christians that you notice because they tend to proclaim themselves so.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
huh? oh no. i was just throwing out arbitrary descriptions for people that they really have no control over. I lump being Italian in there with being good at sports or having a photographic memory or being gay. none of them or choices. its just how they are. i wish i had some italian in me though. ive got just about everything else.

Ok, I understand, it was the way it was worded that caused me confusion.

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Evidence against your argument?- well, after gay marriage was legalised in Canada ( "Proud to be Canadian" )- there were umpteen examples of couples who had been together for years joyously coming forward to proclaim their love and devotion (sniffle)

I applaud Canada for passing that law. The US should follow Canada's lead. Many gay couples live in the US and have no spousal rights at all.

[Lizra]

Christian majority! Get off! You are right IR..the Christians just make alot of noise about it! Be sure and read my posts in the old gay thread, if you want to hear "the rest of the story"

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
If fun is the whole picture, then Frodo and Sam were idiots.

I love that!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I love that!

Thanks, Arien

Does anyone else agree with Arien and me (grammar police - note correct usage of "me") that there is more to life than grabbing as much happiness for yourself as you can?

And let me just add that altho sin may be fun for a season, the joy that comes with Christianity is even better! Of course I still sin - it's a daily battle - but when I succeed in overcoming temptation and NOT sinning in a particular instance, the joy I have because of that is greater than the "fun" I would have had in the sin, and there is no downside at all.

I think that many non-Christians just don't realize the incredible joy that Christians have in their relationship with God. You guys are all Tolkien fans here, right? You know how sometimes the sheer beauty of a particular passage in his works will just hit you so hard it's almost physically painful? It's the same way with God for me, and for the Christians I know that are really committed - the incredible beauty and holiness of God, and the depth of His love for us, just overwhelms me sometimes when I think about it. So yes, sin is fun for a season, but giving up sin is even better!

[Lizra]

Depends on how you define happiness! Aren't you doing it (grabbing the happy ) because being a good Christian makes you happy?

[Silme*Christian]

I am so happy today! I just relized I'm now an Elf Lord!!!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lizra
Depends on how you define happiness! Aren't you doing it (grabbing the happy ) because being a good Christian makes you happy?

Very good point, Lizra.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Does anyone else agree with Arien and me ...that there is more to life than grabbing as much happiness for yourself as you can?

errmm... yeah... that's what I've been trying to say. The majority of society strives to do what is best for the society as a whole. This is evident in their positive interactions with other individuals, their role at work, how they raise their kids, etc.

And let me just add that altho sin may be fun for a season, the joy that comes with Christianity is even better!

It depends on the 'sin', I suppose. It also depends upon if you see what you do as a 'sin' at all. If I turned back the clock to when I was a Catholic, I would have to say that there are many things that I do right now that would be considered a 'sin'. But I was still doing some of it then as well. What I did and still do is considered a 'sin', and did I stop? No, I just felt bad about doing it. And today, I do not believe in a god, and I do not abide by the laws and rules set down by humans and claimed as the laws and rules of a god. What I consider to be 'sins' or rather transgressions against my fellow man are actions on my part that harm someone (physically or mentally) or that would deprive them of property or freedoms (lying, cheating, stealing, etc.).

I think that many non-Christians just don't realize the incredible joy that Christians have in their relationship with God....

zzzzzzzzzz *falls asleep* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I am so happy today! I just relized I'm now an Elf Lord!!!

Hey, you little spammer! You're in the wrong thread!

[HOBBIT]

yes, well if we were all brainwashed then we would all see the joy, eh?


how is it any better than a cult (which is what christianity started out as).

Of course you could probably "find joy" in anything if you put your mind to it.



Plus whats all this about the great joys of christianity? Christians seem to be very outspoken in this topic... no direct quotes here but I also see a lot of "christianity is the best religion"

I know I have said this before, but sorry to burst your bubbles, it isn't. There is nothing really special about it either. It is an old outdated religion, like others - used and abused mainly to control the people and to explain the world around them (early ppl).

You could derive as much joy as you all do from christianity from any other religion - and well, for that matter just about anything. For example, maybe playing my instruments and music gives me as much joy as christiantiy does for you? I'm willing to accept that, why can't you?

We all don't want to be part of the Christian club. Do you really think that it is superior to say Judiasm, Islam, Budhism, Hinuism, Greek, Roman, Mayan, Aztec religions and cultures? How so? They are all pretty much similar. And their members could all feel the same 'joy' and all and they all 'felt and knew in their hearts' that their religion was correct. To christians: they were all wrong and you are correct? I don't think this way.

We all don't need to go to be preached at or believe in some bogus stuff and hinder our lives with religion. It is a good part of life culturally, but it is never a good idea (imo) to let it run your life. The non-christians on this board obviously are perfectly happy and have joy for other things - and do not find joy at religious services. Why do christians automatically assume that their joy is superior that we are all missing out unless we share in their joy? Joy and happiness are the same wherever you see them!

I of course never intend to offend, but I sometimes do that, don't I

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I of course never intend to offend, but I sometimes do that, don't I

I'm not offended at all! I completely agree with you.

What is more offensive? The person who tells others that they 'think that many non-Christians just don't realize the incredible joy that Christians have in their relationship with God' to a non-Christian? (I know that you don't mean to offend, RÃ*an.) Or is it the person who points out the truth, that Christian joy is not superior to other joys, nor religions?

I know that it is a difference of opinion. RÃ*an, you get a lot of happiness from your faith, and that is fine. I'm not telling you that you are misguided. If it makes you happy, then by all means, continue it to your dying day.

But don't tell me that what I believe to be truth is wrong. To understand that we are without a protector, a god, is uplifting and liberating to me. To know that we stand on this planet beholden to each other only, is a great comfort to me.