Blame Fëanor

[Count Comfect]

i think the valar let him down... they didn't even attempt to help him

But he just fled. Did he stick around to be helped? No, he headed off rashly on his own. They would have had to pursue him to help, and he would have turned on anyone who pursued him, assuming that they meant to harm him.

Also, I would blame Aule for the dwarves, Yavanna for the two trees, etc. But they do not have blame for Everything that went wrong. Eru does (as I noted above - but too easy, he created everything). Feänor does too.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Pytt

But if Feanor not have made them, Melkor could have wanted some other object, and killed for that. Then we could blame Feanor for not making the Sil, so other elfs were getting hurt

They are just ifs and buts. This thread is about Blaming Fëanor for what actually happened in The Sil, not what might have done had other people done certain things and vice versa.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

But he just fled. Did he stick around to be helped? No, he headed off rashly on his own. They would have had to pursue him to help, and he would have turned on anyone who pursued him, assuming that they meant to harm him.

i think the passage i quoted from the Sil shows that tolkien may have thought differently... as do the earlier versions of "lost tales" that put the blame squarely on the valar... slackers! (except ulmo, without whom even the eventual downfall of melkor would never have happened )

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by TD

They are just ifs and buts. This thread is about Blaming Fëanor for what actually happened in The Sil, not what might have done had other people done certain things and vice versa.

Even if Feanor hadn't made the Silmarils, Melkor would've, probably, done something else. You can't blame Feanor for that - no one could know. It's not that the silmarils were evil or bad - if one of the Maiar had made them, I think they would've been safe and wouldn't have caused any problems..
So - my point is, it's not only Feanor's fault.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Also, I would blame Aule for the dwarves, Yavanna for the two trees, etc. But they do not have blame for Everything that went wrong. Eru does (as I noted above - but too easy, he created everything). Feänor does too.

Well, if Yavanna hadn't made the Two Trees Melkor would not have become so envious of the light and Fëanor would never have been able to make the Silmarils. Which means that Yavanna is actually more responsible than Fëanor.

[Count Comfect]

So - my point is, it's not only Feanor's fault

Agreed. But it is all his fault. Just not his SOLE fault. That's the key point. Obviously, everything that happened is not Solely predicated on Feanor or what Feanor did or said. It's just that everything has a base, a connection to Feanor such that if he had not done what he did, the precise events of the Sil would not have happened. Not to say that nothing bad, or even nothing similar would have happened. Just that what DID happen wouldn't have.

brownjenkins - I disagree about the passage from the Sil you quoted, but that's a matter of subjective interpretation. And of course Tolkien may have thought differently. All things are possible, and that may even be probable. But I'd still say we can blame Feanor for his actions, although we may ALSO be able to blame the Valar, or Morgoth, or anyone else for some specific things.

[Falagar]

Agreed. But it is all his fault. Just not his SOLE fault. That's the key point. Obviously, everything that happened is not Solely predicated on Feanor or what Feanor did or said. It's just that everything has a base, a connection to Feanor such that if he had not done what he did, the precise events of the Sil would not have happened. Not to say that nothing bad, or even nothing similar would have happened. Just that what DID happen wouldn't

Except from everything that happend before he was born, which includes Melkor rebelling and turning away from the light. Melkor also plotted against Valinor/the Elves before Fëanor got involved.

[Kellquenti]

Don't care ,IT WAS NOT FEANOR OR ANY OF HIS SON'S FAULT!
They just were the only ones to have any guts to say and think differently.
Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed, Count me in with them So they were drawn too far into gaining back the silmarills, but that gives them the strength of conviction and loyalty , Say what you want ,I am a true Feanorian, Curse me too if you want.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Except from everything that happend before he was born, which includes Melkor rebelling and turning away from the light. Melkor also plotted against Valinor/the Elves before Fëanor got involved.

I covered that one, actually. So did Wayfarer. Though... you're more than welcome to attack our logic...

Originally Posted by Kellquenti

Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed

Well, that's because, even if we're completely wrong about everything else, Fëanor was responsible for the downfall of the Noldor. He (and his sons ) did commit countless other crimes.

I doubt that most others thought to do some of the things that the Fëanorians did... kinslaying, for example. And treason.

Originally Posted by Kellquenti

So they were drawn too far into gaining back the silmarills, but that gives them the strength of conviction and loyalty

No matter what your intentions are, if you are drawn to the extreme, you will inevitably work against yourself. I personally find the sons of Fëanor to be tragic characters, guilty and yet victims of their father's pride. Their conviction and loyalty were their downfall.

Originally Posted by Kellquenti

Say what you want ,I am a true Feanorian, Curse me too if you want.

You're not the only Fëanorian here. We haven't cursed any of the others yet (I don't think we have at least... )

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

No matter what your intentions are, if you are drawn to the extreme, you will inevitably work against yourself. I personally find the sons of Fëanor to be tragic characters, guilty and yet victims of their father's pride.

I agree that they are both victims and perpetrators.

Their conviction and loyalty were their downfall.

And that's the saddest part of it. Because of their loyalty they were so damned. I'm not sure about convinction, but loyalty certainly, and the more I consider it, the more the tragedy sinks in.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I covered that one, actually. So did Wayfarer. Though... you're more than welcome to attack our logic...

Can you sum it up so I can smash your logic into pieces without having to quote passages from several pages back?

It would be folly to say he was not responsible for anything good. Despite the incredible evil that came out of the Return, I don't think it can be claimed that no good came of it. Fëanor would therefore be as responsible for the good as for the evil.

But, in any case, I think that the evil far outweighs the good.

However, as far as we know, it all ended good. Which means that, by your own logic, Fëanor's actions actually did good. I have to find my bed now but I'll see if I can do a follow-up tomorrow.

[Elemmírë]

All right… Restating old posts for Falagar’s benefit… I’m basically eliminating some of the spam and touching on the parts of the thread that deal with retroactive blame:

In my opinion, does retroactive blame should count.

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:

He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.

This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.

Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything.

You're all going to love this one:

Tolkien himself would not have created the Two Trees if not for the Silmarils. Don't you all agree?

So, if not for Fëanor's existence, the Two Trees would not have existed. Likewise, if not for Fëanor and the future Silmarilli, there would have been no need to destroy the Two Trees.

If there had been no need to destroy the Trees, then there would have been no need for Morgoth to be evil.

And if there was no need for Morgoth to be evil, he would not have flouted Ilúvatar.

Now, if we look at this from within the mythos, we have to remember that free will is a tricky thing that might not really exist at all, especially for Elves. In this case, everything seems dependent upon Ilúvatar. Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Fëanor would come. So, following my logic above, Fëanor once again causes Morgoth's rebellion.

Wayfarer added his own thoughts on the idea:

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

Manveru argued that: That's still not Feanor's fault. That's like saying its my fault this thread was started because I was going to post in it.

To which I responded: Well... try to look at it all from a rather fatalistic point of view.

If one of your posts somewhere along the line in this thread starts something serious or somehow changes the way we all think about Tolkien (or makes us go declare war on Mexico ), then perhaps one could claim that this thread had to be started so that such an event could come to pass.

In which case, if you believe that fate is stuck in stone, and that such a future event had to come to pass, it most certainly is your fault, rather than mine and Chrys's, that this thread was started.

And that's the sort of logic that we're using to blame Fëanor. Of course, it hinges upon the presence of fate and almost complete absence of free will, though I think such is a perfectly logical way to view Middle Earth.


Mabass added: Well...Tolkien did write these books and since he did then you know that everything happened for a reason. And if everything happened for a reason(fate) then it is Feanor's fault.

I think all I did was back up what Elemmire was saying...just from a different point of veiw.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Kellquenti

...They just were the only ones to have any guts to say and think differently.
Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed...

My priests keep saying the same thing... Melkor's actually a great guy.... He's just a little different...

[Nurvingiel]

I have a hard time swallowing the statement that Yavanna made the Two Trees just so Fëanor could make the Silmaril's. However, I am impressed that you managed to make such a cohesive argument out of blaming Fëanor for Melkor's evil.

However, there are flaws in your logic. If you apply retroacive blame, you must also apply retroactive credit.

If Melkor was evil because Fëanor would later exist, then Finwë (Fëanor's father) must only have existed to father Fëanor. But he was also the father of Fingolfin and Finarfin (Fëanor's half-brothers).

Finarfin is the ancestor of several notable elves, including Galadriel, Arwen, Gil-Galad, and your own beloved Finrod.

So Fëanor can't be all that bad can he?

Source: Galadriel's Family Tree

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

All right… Restating old posts for Falagar’s benefit… I’m basically eliminating some of the spam and touching on the parts of the thread that deal with retroactive blame:

In my opinion, does retroactive blame should count.

This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future.

From my brand new (second edition ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos:

This supports the idea that much of free will is an illusion. All of it, indeed, since the rest lies with Eru still.

If you remove free will then nothing is ultimately anyone's fault, because they can't decide anything for themselves. Thus it is Eru's fault for making them do it.
Anyway, Tolkien notes in a passage in one of his letter:

Originally Posted by Letter 212

I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of the Angels' : a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable.

Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after.

Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything.

You're all going to love this one:

Tolkien himself would not have created the Two Trees if not for the Silmarils. Don't you all agree?

Nope. Especially since in the first version of the text it isn't the Silmarilli that causes Melkor to attack the Trees.

So, if not for Fëanor's existence, the Two Trees would not have existed. Likewise, if not for Fëanor and the future Silmarilli, there would have been no need to destroy the Two Trees.

If there had been no need to destroy the Trees, then there would have been no need for Morgoth to be evil.

And if there was no need for Morgoth to be evil, he would not have flouted Ilúvatar.

Since he was evil already before the making of Arda and the Two Trees I doubt this. There was a need for an evil character to mess a bit around in order to make the story interesting, the whole creation of the myth did not start with or revolved around Fëanor (it actually started with Tuor).

I'll take an example, using the same logic: The Silmarillion originated from the tale of Gondolin. Without the story of Tuor there would never have been any Silmarillion. Tuor's quest to Turgon is thus the most important tale of the Silmarillion, and without it there wouldn't have been any need for anything that happend before him. Which means that Tuor is to blame for absolutely everything which happend before his birth, as well as everything that happend after him.

We could use this argument to blame any of the major characters in the Silmarillion.

Now, if we look at this from within the mythos, we have to remember that free will is a tricky thing that might not really exist at all, especially for Elves. In this case, everything seems dependent upon Ilúvatar. Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Fëanor would come. So, following my logic above, Fëanor once again causes Morgoth's rebellion.

As pointed to above, free will (in Tolkien's own words) exists. Anyway:

Yavanna created the Trees because they needed light. I don't think you can presume that Yavanna wouldn't have created the Two Trees if Ilúvatar hadn't preordained that Fëanor should exist. As tried to explain above one could do that with several other characters, for example one might say that Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë should come to Valinor, gaze upon their splendour and counsil their kindred to take the trip. Thus Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë would take the blame (and also the Elves for sending them, and the Valar for asking them to come).

Wayfarer added his own thoughts on the idea:

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

The Pillars also had to be destroyed so that Yavanna could make the Two Trees. Does that make Yavanna responsible for their fate?

And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.

[snowmane]

problem...i agree with the whole 'feanor sucks' thing,but if it werent for him and his messsing up things, there would have never been a numenor...the fact that it got destroyed is kinda irrelevant..
little bit off the topic, but there you go.

plus there is always going to be evil,noone can change that,so fate in my opinion does not work here(agreeing with Falagar).
And if the sim was just a happy story about how the elves lived happy lives,getting everything they wanted and werent corrupted in any way,noone would have read the story and it would have not been that interesting.what made it interesting is the tendancies the elves had,especially in feanors case which made him so rash.(and a little bit on the mad side,like a crazy inventor)
if he hadnt been so tempremental and made the decision he had, none of the stuff would have happened.
however if you used this idea,you would have to blame either his mum or dad for his mentality,cause he would have had to get it off one of them.
(even though his dad was great and had the half-brothers who were fab.)

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Falagar

And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.

i agree

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah, good point Fal. Because of Fëanor's son Celegorm, Huan came to Middle-earth and helped Beren and Luthien defeat Morgoth. True, Beren wouldn't have been Sauron's captive without what's-their-heads (two other of Fëanor's sons) but without this action, Luthien wouldn't have taken Morgoth down.

So perhaps without Fëanor's sons, Morgoth would not have been defeated at all! Okay, the Kinslaying is hard to get around, but it still seems that Fëanor's actions resluted in more good than evil, which is easier to take than retroactive blame (or credit).

[Elemmírë]

It's been a really long day (I missed a bus and had to wait over an hour for the next one ), and I really don't have the strength to argue with you, Falagar. Or the attention span.

Debating free will would be off topic here (not that anyone would notice ), but I'd like to do it sometime. Despite what Tolkien says in the Letters, comments such as Mandos "knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar" (Valaquenta, Silmarillion) make it hard for me to accept.

Originally Posted by Falagar

Since he was evil already before the making of Arda and the Two Trees I doubt this. There was a need for an evil character to mess a bit around in order to make the story interesting, the whole creation of the myth did not start with or revolved around Fëanor (it actually started with Tuor).

Just curious, which book is this in?

Originally Posted by Falagar

We could use this argument to blame any of the major characters in the Silmarillion.

In part, I'll agree with you here. However, I think only the very central characters can be blamed, Fëanor, Túrin, Tuor... perhaps Beren?

Originally Posted by Falagar

And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.

You have to understand that blaming Fëanor for everything that came before was only done so as to not leave any gaps in this crazy little "project" of ours (though I'll be working on it again as soon as I can think straight ). In the end, though, what happened afterwards is undeniably at least in part, Fëanor's fault.

Yes, by my logic, Fëanor's actions did good. I didn't add it to my post earlier, since it was slightly different from what we were discussing, but I would hazard to claim that in the end, even Morgoth's actions did some good. Here we get to the marvellous little debate over means vs. ends. The final result was good (at least in part, the fact that the majority of the Noldor had already been wiped out notwithstanding), but this doesn't invalidate the evil things that Fëanor did.

And, Falagar, by your logic, we couldn't claim that Fëanor's actions did good. There were lots of other people involved, most of whom had far more obviously positive influence in the events.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

It's been a really long day (I missed a bus and had to wait over an hour for the next one ), and I really don't have the strength to argue with you, Falagar. Or the attention span.

Neither do I, I'll just leave a few quick comments.

Debating free will would be off topic here (not that anyone would notice ), but I'd like to do it sometime. Despite what Tolkien says in the Letters, comments such as Mandos "knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar" (Valaquenta, Silmarillion) make it hard for me to accept.

Then one also has to accept that all the evil (as well as the good) came from Eru, and thus Eru can't really be a 'good' God.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Just curious, which book is this in?

Book of Lost Tales, the Fall of Gondolin is in part two (and remains one of his most brilliant texts)

In part, I'll agree with you here. However, I think only the very central characters can be blamed, Fëanor, Túrin, Tuor... perhaps Beren?

Hah, I'm sure I can get something on for example Thorondor as well!

Originally Posted by Elemmire

And, Falagar, by your logic, we couldn't claim that Fëanor's actions did good. There were lots of other people involved, most of whom had far more obviously positive influence in the events.

There were some positive effects, but true, most of his actions were evil. I haven't claimed he ever did much good anyway. I still love him though.