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#161 | |||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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*Hoo boy! How'd I let this debate slide by me?*
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Secondly, moralism can be closely tied into a cultural belief system or ideology. What may be considered to be morally wrong in one society, might be considered to be kosher in another. Nothing is completely absolute, but nothing is completely relative either. I agree with whoever said it, that absolute morals are something we aim for, but can not achieve. Thirdly, since I believe in evolution, the hominid species has not always had the faculties to discern 'right' and 'wrong'. Ideologies are a human trait, applicable it seems, only to humans. Chimpanzees partake in rape and murder, but they are not bound to a moral belief system. In summation, both absolutism and relativism are a load of bollocks. They're nothing more than nice neat lables which function as a thinly veiled ideology.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 05-05-2002 at 04:46 PM. |
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#162 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: May 2001
Location: myob
Posts: 587
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So it's absolute that there are no absolutes (morally speaking)?
FrodoFriend was upset when someone said men are superior to women. That implies that the moral that men and women are equal is better than the moral of sexism (I agree!), but means that this is absolute, generally speaking. So is that an absoulute? Men and women are equal, no matter what (Very generally speaking)?
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Boo! |
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#163 | |
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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Right. Wrong. This is what it boils down to.
Some live by a moral code, but interestingly (at least to my point of view), there are two moral codes in life. That is, the one they live by, and the other one that they aspire to live by. I believe it is quite clear that external elements interact with one's chosen moral code (the aspirational one), which creates the end result (the actual practised moral code). What I mean by external is an influence that does not originate from this proposed absolute morality, such as the concious (or subconcious) desire for self-preservation, or the hidden need for stability or freedom from fear. But my main point is that there is more than one type of right, and more than one type of wrong. Ofcourse there is the moral right and wrong. But we must not forget about the rational or intellectual right and wrong. One believes that unreasonable killing is "wrong". Why? Because it goes against that person's morals (either aspirational, or practised, or both). Why does that person live by that moral code? Because it is right to do so. This is the intellectual "right". We are faced with a number of differing moral codes, and it is our intellectual decision to follow one, to hold it as correct. This decision has a number of contributing factors, such as indoctrination, or faith, and other fatcors, as well as a combination of these. My aspirational morals? I have none. Quote:
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#164 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
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moral statemnets are meaningless. they do not express facts at all. they are just expressions of emotion. like grunts,sighs, or laughter
when someone says tortue is wrong or you should tell the truth the are doing little more that showing how they feel about the subject. what they have said is neither true or false. Its like shouting "boo' at torture and "hooray at " truth telling"
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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#165 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 146
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Before I launch into any thoughts I would like to know one matter, is absolutism, or part of it, "might is right"?
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"A truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent." |
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#166 | ||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#167 |
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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Moral absolutism, as the subject of this thread, should not be confused with political theory. In my opinion, the third definition is more applicable:
An absolute doctrine, principle, or standard. Absolutism is a wide-encompassing topic, but we are discussing a branch of it. |
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#168 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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But a lot of that is polotics. Polotics seems to get mixed up in everything. . .
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#169 |
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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Well, it seems that moral absolutism does play, now as well as in the past, a political role. From this I would say that while absolutism is a theory broadly practiced in the political arena ("might is right" etc), moral absolutism is a tool used for political gains in a less blatant manner. However, as church becomes more separated from state, the usefulness of this moral absolutist strategy dwindles somewhat.
But that is not to say that absolutism, as a general theory, has lost it's favourability. Last edited by Andúril : 05-16-2002 at 11:22 AM. |
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#170 |
Halfwitted
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Eryn Vorn
Posts: 1,659
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Dear Eru, not this debate again!
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Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears |
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#171 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 306
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Ooh boy!!
The problem with trying to determine all this is that everything is relative... ![]() ![]()
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FRODO LIVES!! EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO rule the world! |
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#172 | |
Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,214
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#173 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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http://exn.ca/mummies/Andes.cfm It *is* relative. While it's considered a monstrosity in our culture, in yet another culture, it might be considered a defining moment in ideology, etc. (rather a loaded statement that, typical. ![]()
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 07-26-2002 at 10:20 PM. |
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#174 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Ooh, and while I remember, I seem to remember a few dodgy references in the bible regarding torturing children/babies.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#175 |
The Rogue Elf
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,722
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Oi . . . and I thought this was gone for good. Shame on emplynx for bringing it back up.
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#176 |
Radically Tolkienited
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+><
Posts: 967
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Um way back when this began someone mentioned there are no absolutes in nature. Then I have to ask this...what about territories set down by different animals? Large cats for example pee and claw on trees to let other cats know that that is THIER territory and to STAY OUT! If one cat steps over the line of that territory then the first cat will chase the other out. Birds do this too. They sing at different places on their territory to tell rival birds to bug off. Aren't those absolutes? And aboslute boundery for territories. If one rival crosses the border then all goodness to who knows what breaks out until the rival is chased off. So I dont care what you ugys say. There ARE absolutes in nature.
And as far as the killing goes. Animals have no sense of right or wrong. THEY ARE INNOCENT. They kill for FOOD. They dont kill because some rival ticked 'em off, or because they feel like it. They have no sense of right or wrong so to compare human morals with animal morals is silly...because animals DONT have morals. They just live day to day. And if there were no morals then that would mean there was no God, and if there was no God then what use are our lives if there is no soveriegn deity to listen to us and help us with our problems?Why does the Christian relegion keep on going if there is no God? In fact why does ANY relegion exsist if there is no god to listen to us? Why dont we just give up? I'll give an answer to that last one...because something cant come from nothing. There has to be a designer, someone who creates that something from nothing. *waits for someone to bite her head off and quietly and somewhat feebley says* Cheers, Sam ps.Who here is a Christian? Please Pm or e-mail me. I want to know seriously. Enough of the suprises that pop up in posts and signatures.
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#177 | |||||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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This debate is about absolutes vs relativism, NOT theological short-comings. Lets try and stick to the topic. Just once. ![]()
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#178 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
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Now, this was of course an example of chimps in captivity. If I could find a specific example of wild chimps, I would, but the point is, not all animals just kill for food. Discuss.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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#179 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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#180 |
Bard of Mangled Songs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila
Posts: 2,679
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I think Jane Goodall(sp?) observed that there's a lot of politics going on with Chimp society.
A chimp at the lower part of the pecking order can enhance himself and become an alpha by simply taking care of the alpha female's infant.
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
I'm writing an essay on relativism in LOTR | IronParrot | Lord of the Rings Books | 152 | 02-11-2005 05:38 PM |