Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Valandil
Trying in vain to recall enough history and geography of 1st Age Beleriand to put this in the right context in my own mind. Where exactly is Dorthonion and which House (of Edain) is Andreth from? I'm guessing it was the homeland of Beren and that she was a Beoran... are those right? If so, was she close kin to Beren, since there's mention of her loss?

I was just THINKING Dorthonion was that (ED: mountainous) part of Beleriand north of Doriath (without checking a map - book at home) plus Beor's House was associated with Finrod, right? From the time they first met and Finrod sang and played his harp!

Yes, Andreth was of the first house of the Edain. She was the sister of Bregor, who was the father of Barahir, who was the father of Beren.

Dorthonion was located just south of Ard-galen.

[Rían]

I need to catch up with this thread... but just a quick question - Val, do you have Morgoth's Ring? I thought you had it ...

Great story, isn't it? *sigh*

[Valandil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I need to catch up with this thread... but just a quick question - Val, do you have Morgoth's Ring? I thought you had it ...

Great story, isn't it? *sigh*

No - my only HoMe so far is the last one - PoMe. I have aspirations though! My only knowledge of this story is what I've read here... at the top of the previous page, SGH posted an excerpt earlier posted by Nolendil near the start of the thread.

Anyway - from that much alone, I can tell it's a great story indeed.

Uh - as often happens to me, I made what I consider an interesting post at the bottom of the last page... anyone notice it? Care to comment?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Perhaps one of his friends who died in the trenches of WW1 - and didn't make it back to the girl he loved? In this case, he'd be giving greater honor to the friend, making him a great Elf...

Not sure. In the case of Aegnor, even had he lived, would he have returned to Andreth? She would have been an old lady by then.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Not sure. In the case of Aegnor, even had he lived, would he have returned to Andreth? She would have been an old lady by then.

Yes, it would obviously have to be very 'loosely based' - perhaps a young lady grieving over a lost love could have gotten him thinking though. And JRRT didn't exactly lose a hand trying to pilch a jewel now, did he? Nor did Beren and Luthien have 3 sons to go with their 1 daughter.

[Rían]

I saw your post and thought it was a v. good thought - it could have also maybe been a reflection on Tolkien himself, when he chose to "give up" Edith for a year or so at the request of his surrogate father, tho they both loved each other a great deal. I prob. can't post in here at length until Monday, tho - busy weekend! But I saw your post and I bet you're right - I'm sure he heard a lot of personal love stories when he was in the war, and a lot of tragic ones, too.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yep, that was me.
Do you think that perhaps one of the reasons aegnor rejected her was that he felt more inclined to avenge her hurt from the enemy, rather than return her love and forsake the war?

No, I don't think so. I think the hurt Finrod is talking about is the hurt she has just told him about: The shortening of the lifespan of the Edain. But this is something Aegnor could not have known at the time of rejection. Like the rest of the Noldor, Aegnor has his own reasons to make war against Morgoth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
No, I don't think so. I think the hurt Finrod is talking about is the hurt she has just told him about: The shortening of the lifespan of the Edain. But this is something Aegnor could not have known at the time of rejection. Like the rest of the Noldor, Aegnor has his own reasons to make war against Morgoth.

Yes, but I think the short lifespan of the Edain was just one of the reasons. Finrod gives a couple more reasons why Aegnor turned from Andreth.

Not forsaking his kin and the war.
High purpose of doom.

There are probably others. I will have to check.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes, but I think the short lifespan of the Edain was just one of the reasons. Finrod gives a couple more reasons why Aegnor turned from Andreth.

Not forsaking his kin and the war.
High purpose of doom.

There are probably others. I will have to check.

There were others:

She would become an old woman while he remained young, a fact which Finrod assumed, rightly I'm sure, would lead to shame on her part and pity on Aegnor's part.

Being an Elf, Aegnor preferred to keep his love 'unstained', he would rather keep a beautiful memory of love than have the reality which would lead to "a grievous end".

[Beor]

Hey, not to interrupt any discussion (doesnt seem like much has happened lately anyway), but I just though I would announce here that I finally got Morgoth's Ring, and it kicks serious ass. I managed to skip strait to the Athrabeth, for better or worse, and it is really an incredible dialouge, I suppose, and it really shook up all the notions I had of the purpose of the Followers. Quite an amazing tale.

I have to finish it still, I am only about halfway done, but I will get er done, and get back to you. Thanks for recommending it on so many different occasions, Sister Golden Hair, it paid off, dude! Kick ass!!

[Rían]

Great! The Athrabeth rocks! Enjoy! (and be sure to read all the appendicies)

[Sister Golden Hair]

In the old thread we discussed at length the relationship and love between Aegnor and Andreth. But this story has many points worth discussing besides that. At the time of the old thread, the discussion was limited to a handful of people, but I think many have read Morgoth's Ring since and could add a lot to a new discussion. We can continue our points on Andreth and Aegnor, along with the other parts of the Athrabeth, such as the Tale of Adanel, and the views of Andreth and Finrod on the fate of Elves and Men after the end of Arda.

One of the questions that had been asked in the old thread and that was also asked by Andreth was: why did Aegnor leave when she had still a few good years that they could have been together? It occurred to me while looking at the old thread last night, that perhaps Aegnor had had a forsight about his own death. It seems the Elven forsight was keen, but not always clear, nor was it complete. The premonition was enough to see that death was imminent, but not enough to know when or how. I think that is shown in the Silmarillion with Finrod's forsight of his own death. But because of this ability of forsight by the Elves, which is something I don't really think Andreth understood, I was thinking that Aegnor may have turned from her because he saw his death and he was afraid that had he stayed with her and died before her, that she would be utterly grieved at the loss. Although he died before her anyway, perhaps in his mind, the lack of togetherness made his death more bearable for her. We can only engage in speculation, but if this is the case with Aegnor, than I think many of us and Andreth were wrong in assuming that he was selfish in his course of action.

For those who do not have Morgoth's Ring there is an excerpt from the Athrabeth posted on the next to the last page of the old thread. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...7&page=8&pp=20 This excerpt only deals with Andreth and Aegnor's relationship.

One of the more interesting points in the Athrabeth is Finrod and Andreth's discussion on the lives and fate of Men. It says in the Silmarillion that the years of the Edain were lenghtened after their coming into Beleriand. Why? What did the land of Beleriand have that could lengthen their lives, that the lands in the east didn't have? Was it possible that the further west they went and the closer they came to Valinor, even though they were still across the Great Sea, could provide for some of these benefits. Yet, as we know, mortals would not survive longer in the Blessed Realm.

Andreth also says that Men were never meant for death, at least in their original state. Death was imposed upon them after their corruption by Morgoth. Does this mean that they were once immortal like the Elves? Finrod seems to think that this is something conjured up in the minds of Men in envy of the Elves.

Other interesting parts of the Debate between Finrod and Andreth are: Eru's presence in Arda, The severance of body and spirit, and Arda Remade.

There is much to be discussed in this short but beautifully written debate, and all other discussion points you can come up with are welcome.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

One of the questions that had been asked in the old thread and that was also asked by Andreth was: why did Aegnor leave when she had still a few good years that they could have been together? It occurred to me while looking at the old thread last night, that perhaps Aegnor had had a forsight about his own death. .... We can only engage in speculation, but if this is the case with Aegnor, than I think many of us and Andreth were wrong in assuming that he was selfish in his course of action.

Well Finrod certainly seems to have had a foresight of his brother's death, or why else would he speak to Andreth about pitying candles when the wind blows them out? So if Aegnor knew about this he must have taken it into consideration when he made his decision. I think he was not directly selfish, but due to lack of sufficient knowledge of Men he failed to see the situation from her point of view. Just like she failed to see his pov.

Thanks for putting up this thread SGH, I'll respond more but it's past midnight here right now so later.

[Rían]

Hey, the Athrabeth again I"m game! School just started today (eldest son) and tomorrow (2 youngest), so prob. later on this week I'll post. Thanks, SGH! This is a beautiful work.

[Artanis]

In one of the footnotes it is said that the wise-women among Men were often unwed. I wonder why it was so? Should wisdom disqualify for marriage?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Artanis

In one of the footnotes it is said that the wise-women among Men were often unwed. I wonder why it was so? Should wisdom disqualify for marriage?

That is what made them wise-women.

Outside of this footnote, I can find no elaboration on this. Perhaps because of the wars of the First Age, men were scarce on the home front. It wasn't that they chose not to marry, there just were few if any men around.

[Attalus]

I don't know if, in the old thread, this was brought up, but to me the passage that says that death was never meant to Men was referring to the Fall. Would Adam and Eve have been immortal if they had not eaten from the Tree? I doubt it, but that would certainly be a rumor in a mortal society in contact with an immortal society with which they had much in common. One of the results of the Fall would be seen as mortality, a punishment, not a blessing as the Eldar insisted. If Heaven is anything like that imagined by C.S. Lewis, I can see how it would be so regarded by the Elves.

[Rían]

*bump*

Sorry I've been unable to post here - school starting up, and I'm in charge of the computers for the candy sale, and it's wild and crazy (darn candy sale Nazi lady! ) ... hopefully in a week or so I'll be able to post in the more thoughtful threads - right now it's just quote game and wheel of fortune for me!

[Nanedhel]

It is wonderful to find a discussion of the Athrabeth! I love this chapter, and find it to be very enlightening on the natures of Elves and mortals, and their relationship between each other, at least as they see it themselves. I have found the uncertainty that the Elves feel about their fate at the end of the world to be very poignant. Mortal men have always envied Elves their (limited) immortality, but at least mortals have some assurance of existence beyond death, whereas Elves have been given none. Finrod, at least, seems to believe that the fate of the Elves depends on the actions of mortal men who were given the ability to shape their fates, and therefore the potential to act as the delivers of the Elves by healing the hurts of Arda and ensuring that Elves will not cease to exist at the end of time along with a marred world.

It occurred to me while looking at the old thread last night, that perhaps Aegnor had had a forsight about his own death.

I think you have a good point, Sister Golden Hair. I had never considered that Aegnor may have foreseen his own death, but looking back at the debate, it makes sense. I just assumed he turned away from Andreth due to the Elven custom of not marrying during times of war. However, if he had foreseen his own death in battle, could he have left hoping that his sacrifice would keep Andreth safe, and perhaps hoping that she would move on and find happiness among one of her own people?

I hope I am making some sort of sense here, and not just rambling. I missed out on the first debate on this chapter, but I am looking forward to following the current discussion here.

[Sister Golden Hair]

A hardy welcome to the thread and to Entmoot Nanedhel.