Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

But it's increasingly getting like the Eurovision Song Contest: Israel next??

who have "second class citizen" issues of their own

[inked]

brownjenkins, a good arbitrater is nuetral, rather! We have a vast gulf about the nature of morality between us. There may be points of contact. We shall see.

Nurv and TheGaffer,
It is an established fact of Islamic dominated countries that Christians are second class citizens. Turkey is the same. My point is if an individual can be excluded from leadership in the EU on the basis of his personal views on one issue being Christian, how much more a nation who violates systematically the priciple of equality?

Alas, I suspect that TG is correct, it will be pecuniary consideration not ideals that determine entrance.

So, the purpose of the European Union is ... ... and that differs from the USA ... ... or not ?

[Nurvingiel]

I'll moderate! I have things in common with both Inked and Brownjenkins. Or maybe I should just run... run like the wind!

I think we should start a proper European Union thread and merge this one with it. IMHO.

[inked]

Nurv, you moderate? Aaiiieeee!

I think a separate thread to discuss the EU might work, but I think this one has a specific goal to address and should remain separate. There is a real question I think about whether the principles or the money come first. Since the inclusion of Turkey without rectifying the second-class status of Christians (a direct result of Islam) violates the principle of equality, would the inclusion of that nation even on purely economic grounds not be direct effect of ignoring the Islamic nullification of equality in practice and thus in the EU?

Would that be a good or bad effect?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

There is a real question I think about whether the principles or the money come first. Since the inclusion of Turkey without rectifying the second-class status of Christians (a direct result of Islam) violates the principle of equality, would the inclusion of that nation even on purely economic grounds not be direct effect of ignoring the Islamic nullification of equality in practice and thus in the EU?

Would that be a good or bad effect?

hard to say... as JD has pointed out to me in the past, the US has had many a questionable bedfellow with the goal of a greater good in mind (i.e. an alliance with saddam hussein in order to stand against soviet-backed iran)

principles, like morals, must be flexible

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

who have "second class citizen" issues of their own

We do not. Arabs have the same rights, exactly, if that what you mean... Israeli Arabs I'm talking about, not the ones in the Palestinian areas.

[Rían]

IIRC, the place where Arabs have the most representation in a democratic government is ... Israel.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by inked

It is an established fact of Islamic dominated countries that Christians are second class citizens. Turkey is the same.

Really? Genuine enquiry: what's the evidence for that?

Originally Posted by inked

My point is if an individual can be excluded from leadership in the EU on the basis of his personal views on one issue being Christian, how much more a nation who violates systematically the priciple of equality?

Yes, I should say so. I mentioned that Turkey has made some progress in this area (e.g. abolition of the death penalty, penal reform), but it is a "deal-breaker" issue I think (and hope).

However, an important point to make is that aspiring for membership of the EU has forced Turkey to improve its human rights record, which is a good thing in and of itself.

Originally Posted by inked

So, the purpose of the European Union is ... ... and that differs from the USA ... ... or not ?

From the EU web site:

Member States have set up common institutions to which they delegate some of their sovereignty so that decisions on specific matters of joint interest can be made democratically at European level. This pooling of sovereignty is also called "European integration".

My personal view is that it's a (potentially) inspirational development of internationalism. There are issues that face all societies, such as policing, which need to be responsive to local needs and should be governed at a local level; there are issues, such as defence, which should be governed at a national level; and there are issues, such as trade, which are best governed at an international level. The EU provides a way of achieving the last of these three.

Members agree (or disagree) on what issues should be decided at that level, have a big bunfight about what the policy is going to be, have lunch in a jolly nice restaurant, then the French totally ignore the decision and do what the hell they want.

More generally, the EU is committed to human rights, co-operation and economic development. It has had a very positive (IMO) impact on all of its member states. Even countries such as the UK, who have been net contributors throughout, have benefitted by free access to markets: my own company does about 25% of its business with Europe, indirectly funded by EU grants.

A more relevant question would be "in what way is it similar to the US?" The word "state" is used to describe its members but that's about it.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Members agree (or disagree) on what issues should be decided at that level, have a big bunfight about what the policy is going to be, have lunch in a jolly nice restaurant, then the French totally ignore the decision and do what the hell they want.

If I was en EU member, I'd put forward a motion to kick them up if they kept disregarding the EUs decisions. It's like having a grandstander on a rugby team - they get cut even if they're all-star.

This applies to the EU too. I'm sure France is an important member, but what's the point of having them in the alliance if they aren't going to be part of the alliance? It's useful to France - they can get others to agree to policies they like sometimes, but it's useless to everyone else.

[The Gaffer]

Totally agree; France has broken more EU rules than all the other members put together.

The EU needs to start showing its teeth a bit more. The Parliament's veto of the new Commission a few months ago was a very positive sign in that direction, but much more needs to be done.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

to the french the eu is a club to which one subscribes, but a philosophy one does not adhere to

[Valandil]

OK guys... please DON'T make me split this thread AGAIN!!

There IS an EU thread (at least one)... things will be a bit less confusing if we do the EU discussion there.

[The Gaffer]

Peace, man. We're trying to steer it away from the inevitable God and onto Turkey>Eu.

That would seem to be relevant to Islamic influence in European nations

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

We do not. Arabs have the same rights, exactly, if that what you mean... Israeli Arabs I'm talking about, not the ones in the Palestinian areas.

equal rights in law and in practice are two different things... we have problems over this kind of issue in the USA as well... jewish citizens have certain advantages within israel that are not shared by non-jewish citizens

this site has some good, and i think fairly impartial, reports: jewish virtual library

jewish non-citizens of israel also have certain rights that non-jewish non-citizens do not share (immigration, in particular)

that said, israel certainly does much better all said than most, if not all, of the surrounding arab goverments do

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

OK guys... please DON'T make me split this thread AGAIN!!

There IS an EU thread (at least one)... things will be a bit less confusing if we do the EU discussion there.

Oops, sorry Val. I thought this was the EU thread. Heh...

Erm, yeah.

Anyway, aside from a few extremists, which ruin it for everyone in other religions too, I think Islam will have a positive influence in Europe. Why? Because Europe is a very culturally diverse place, and including Islam will hopefully help people's attitudes towards other cultural inclusions. Plus, Islam is cool. And, there are already European Muslims, so when Turkey joins are more of part of the Europe "team", then maybe people won't feel in such a minority.

There are probably many other good reasons that I don't notice, only because I am neither Muslim nor European.

[inked]

TheGaffer,

"Really? Genuine enquiry: what's the evidence for that?"

Information as requested. The articles are long and are but precis of the references. It is a complex subject and therefore simple answers are not possible or reliable.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=1269

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...hp?storyid=782

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...hp?storyid=738

The following thread incorporates news articles from Germany, England, the Netherlands, etc in regard to the issues of Turkey (lead in) specifically and the EU. The multitude of articles from 4 EU countries each discuss the differentiation of Islamic from non-Islamic citizens in Arab states. I realize that it will be a long reading session but it is worth it for a pan-European discussion of sorts between November 2004 and now:

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...#forumpost6312

edit conclusion: I trust these will be sufficient in number and breadth.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Members agree (or disagree) on what issues should be decided at that level, have a big bunfight about what the policy is going to be, have lunch in a jolly nice restaurant, then the French totally ignore the decision and do what the hell they want.

LOL!!

[Janny]

Indeed, most amusing. But you omitted to mention the bit where they all move from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month just to appease one country... I don't mean to go too harsh on them, but you got it... that country... it's France.

[Rían]

Thank you for the references, inky :-)

As I reported before on one of the threads, Christian missionaries in a certain Muslim country cannot have their pictures shown because they fear being killed.

And speaking of missionaries, this is WAAAY off track, but interesting - Gaffer, I wish you could have been with me a few nights ago when we were having a church meeting with a pastor from Romania. Our college group has really latched on to this one orphanage there, and they send support financially and physically (short term and long term trips where they work there). To hear that pastor share intelligently and with compassion his vision for helping the orphans, his practical and astute observations on the cultural and psycological problems there (the older ones were some of the babies that were tied into their cribs and left, and most are gypsies), and some of the successes - strong, practical, rubber-hits-the-road compassion - would have warmed your heart, I think.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

equal rights in law and in practice are two different things... we have problems over this kind of issue in the USA as well... jewish citizens have certain advantages within israel that are not shared by non-jewish citizens

this site has some good, and i think fairly impartial, reports: jewish virtual library

jewish non-citizens of israel also have certain rights that non-jewish non-citizens do not share (immigration, in particular)

that said, israel certainly does much better all said than most, if not all, of the surrounding arab goverments do

I am aware of that, and I do know it's not equal. I don't like it, but.. what can I do? Frankly I am not sure about the site, probably right but I can't answer anything becasue I haven't heard of these. (was only 13 and didn't hear news) And I've never heard of this 'Sikuy' (=chance) organization.
But like the education in Israel isn't equal everywhere - I suppose it's not equal in other countries too, comparing Northern and Southern Italy for example, or Western and Eastern Germany.
And, IMO, the fact that the education isn't as good is the main problem. The others may be solved if that one does.

Yes, of course Jewish non-citizens will have more rights - this country is a Jewish country, and its goal is to bring all Jews... therefore Jews get more funding and stuff from Israel. We don't have any reason to do the same with non-Jewish.