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#161 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#162 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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brownjenkins, a good arbitrater is nuetral, rather! We have a vast gulf about the nature of morality between us. There may be points of contact. We shall see.
Nurv and TheGaffer, It is an established fact of Islamic dominated countries that Christians are second class citizens. Turkey is the same. My point is if an individual can be excluded from leadership in the EU on the basis of his personal views on one issue being Christian, how much more a nation who violates systematically the priciple of equality? Alas, I suspect that TG is correct, it will be pecuniary consideration not ideals that determine entrance. So, the purpose of the European Union is ... ![]() ![]() ![]()
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-19-2005 at 12:26 PM. Reason: speelin |
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#163 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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I'll moderate! I have things in common with both Inked and Brownjenkins. Or maybe I should just run... run like the wind!
![]() I think we should start a proper European Union thread and merge this one with it. IMHO.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#164 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Nurv, you moderate? Aaiiieeee!
![]() I think a separate thread to discuss the EU might work, but I think this one has a specific goal to address and should remain separate. There is a real question I think about whether the principles or the money come first. Since the inclusion of Turkey without rectifying the second-class status of Christians (a direct result of Islam) violates the principle of equality, would the inclusion of that nation even on purely economic grounds not be direct effect of ignoring the Islamic nullification of equality in practice and thus in the EU? Would that be a good or bad effect?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#165 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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principles, like morals, must be flexible ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#166 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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#167 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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IIRC, the place where Arabs have the most representation in a democratic government is ... Israel.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#168 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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However, an important point to make is that aspiring for membership of the EU has forced Turkey to improve its human rights record, which is a good thing in and of itself. Quote:
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Members agree (or disagree) on what issues should be decided at that level, have a big bunfight about what the policy is going to be, have lunch in a jolly nice restaurant, then the French totally ignore the decision and do what the hell they want. More generally, the EU is committed to human rights, co-operation and economic development. It has had a very positive (IMO) impact on all of its member states. Even countries such as the UK, who have been net contributors throughout, have benefitted by free access to markets: my own company does about 25% of its business with Europe, indirectly funded by EU grants. A more relevant question would be "in what way is it similar to the US?" The word "state" is used to describe its members but that's about it. |
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#169 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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This applies to the EU too. I'm sure France is an important member, but what's the point of having them in the alliance if they aren't going to be part of the alliance? It's useful to France - they can get others to agree to policies they like sometimes, but it's useless to everyone else.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#170 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Totally agree; France has broken more EU rules than all the other members put together.
The EU needs to start showing its teeth a bit more. The Parliament's veto of the new Commission a few months ago was a very positive sign in that direction, but much more needs to be done. |
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#171 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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to the french the eu is a club to which one subscribes, but a philosophy one does not adhere to
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#172 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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OK guys... please DON'T make me split this thread AGAIN!!
![]() ![]() There IS an EU thread (at least one)... things will be a bit less confusing if we do the EU discussion there.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#173 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Peace, man. We're trying to steer it away from the inevitable God and onto Turkey>Eu.
![]() That would seem to be relevant to Islamic influence in European nations |
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#174 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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this site has some good, and i think fairly impartial, reports: jewish virtual library jewish non-citizens of israel also have certain rights that non-jewish non-citizens do not share (immigration, in particular) that said, israel certainly does much better all said than most, if not all, of the surrounding arab goverments do
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#175 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Quote:
Erm, yeah. Anyway, aside from a few extremists, which ruin it for everyone in other religions too, I think Islam will have a positive influence in Europe. Why? Because Europe is a very culturally diverse place, and including Islam will hopefully help people's attitudes towards other cultural inclusions. Plus, Islam is cool. ![]() There are probably many other good reasons that I don't notice, only because I am neither Muslim nor European. ![]()
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#176 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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TheGaffer,
"Really? Genuine enquiry: what's the evidence for that?" Information as requested. The articles are long and are but precis of the references. It is a complex subject and therefore simple answers are not possible or reliable. http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=1269 http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...hp?storyid=782 http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...hp?storyid=738 The following thread incorporates news articles from Germany, England, the Netherlands, etc in regard to the issues of Turkey (lead in) specifically and the EU. The multitude of articles from 4 EU countries each discuss the differentiation of Islamic from non-Islamic citizens in Arab states. I realize that it will be a long reading session but it is worth it for a pan-European discussion of sorts between November 2004 and now: http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...#forumpost6312 edit conclusion: I trust these will be sufficient in number and breadth.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-20-2005 at 01:25 PM. Reason: obtain and list links |
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#177 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#178 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
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Indeed, most amusing. But you omitted to mention the bit where they all move from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month just to appease one country... I don't mean to go too harsh on them, but you got it... that country... it's France.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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#179 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Thank you for the references, inky :-)
As I reported before on one of the threads, Christian missionaries in a certain Muslim country cannot have their pictures shown because they fear being killed. And speaking of missionaries, this is WAAAY off track, but interesting - Gaffer, I wish you could have been with me a few nights ago when we were having a church meeting with a pastor from Romania. Our college group has really latched on to this one orphanage there, and they send support financially and physically (short term and long term trips where they work there). To hear that pastor share intelligently and with compassion his vision for helping the orphans, his practical and astute observations on the cultural and psycological problems there (the older ones were some of the babies that were tied into their cribs and left, and most are gypsies), and some of the successes - strong, practical, rubber-hits-the-road compassion - would have warmed your heart, I think.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-20-2005 at 04:12 PM. |
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#180 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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Quote:
But like the education in Israel isn't equal everywhere - I suppose it's not equal in other countries too, comparing Northern and Southern Italy for example, or Western and Eastern Germany. And, IMO, the fact that the education isn't as good is the main problem. The others may be solved if that one does. Yes, of course Jewish non-citizens will have more rights - this country is a Jewish country, and its goal is to bring all Jews... therefore Jews get more funding and stuff from Israel. We don't have any reason to do the same with non-Jewish. |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
NOT about Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations | Lief Erikson | General Messages | 92 | 01-07-2005 09:50 PM |