03-03-2005, 07:29 PM | #161 | |
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JD, things growing gradually around you is not unusual and was not invented when evolution was thought up (or discovered). If God made things just pop up out of nothing, its just as much in his power (and will) to make them grow gradually. And what you are citing sounds to me like Micro-evolution (within species evolution, which is reasonably possible), and NOT macro-evolution. (i.e. monkeys to men, dinasaurs to birds) which is the big transition kind of evolution.
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03-03-2005, 11:01 PM | #162 | |
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As for jellyfishes comment that people came out of nothing even with gradual change - that isn't so. It's just that we don't claim to know how things might have begun. There could have very easily have been chemical and biological reactions. There are many theories on this. But some people blindly accept that some mystical being just popped us up on earth - that is actually what people claim to KNOW happened. There is a difference.
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03-04-2005, 02:20 AM | #163 | |
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Just making a note .
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03-04-2005, 02:38 AM | #164 | |
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Scientists believe evolution at least had the decenty to produce early life from organic material Btw, this is a good read - Genesis
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03-04-2005, 02:46 AM | #165 | |
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If you look at the order of the animals, you'll see that they even have a similar pattern to what is predicted in the Theory of Evolution. First came the marine animals, then land animals, and finally humans. By the time we get to mankind being created out of dust, dust had existed for a long time.
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03-04-2005, 02:55 AM | #166 | ||
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Also, it is quite obvious that the Bible doesn't mention microscopic life. No one knew it existed Quote:
You are right that there was more than enough organic compounds to create human beings by the time mankind came to the earth.
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03-04-2005, 11:19 AM | #167 | ||
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Jonathan already covered what I would have said to address your post to me though.
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03-04-2005, 11:25 AM | #168 | |
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03-04-2005, 01:04 PM | #169 | |
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1. In all but 1 experiment, Kettlewell released the moths during the DAY, when in fact these moths are NOCTURNAL, and 2. When released during the day (which is entirely unnatural to this species) the moths were either placed, or landed, on tree trunks, which are NOT at ALL the natural resting places of these types of moths. This is a deeply flawed experiment, pure and simple. If the hypothesis is that because of environmental coloration changes due to pollution, the moth population shifted percentage of darks to lights, then this is NOT the type of experiment to prove it, since the REAL habits of these moths were blatantly disregarded in two major areas. Why would you defend this experiment? It's deeply flawed, as is clearly illustrated by the differing results in different areas of England (i.e., in other polluted places, the number of LIGHT moths increased!) If you want to prove that birds will eat light colored moths placed unnaturally on tree trunks during an unnatural time of day for them to be out and about, this is the perfect experiment. However, if you want to prove that due to environmental color changes, dark moth percentages increased in a population because birds couldn't see them as well, then this experiment does NOT fit the bill, because the natural habits of these moths were NOT used. Experiments in nature should match the natural habits of the species under observation. That was NOT the case in this experiment. I just don't understand why anyone would support this experiment when it is so flawed I really don't. It's just one of those leftover things, like the "gill slits". I mean you might as well call the "gill slits" on fish embryos "inner ear slits"! "Gill slits" on humans have NOTHING to do with gills or breathing. "Gill slits" on fish develop into gills. They happen to have a superficial, outer (i.e., non-functional) resemblance to one another. Why would you call "gill slits" on fish "gill slits" and not "inner ear slits", if you call "gill slits" on humans "gill slits"? The only reason they were called "gill slits" is because of that recapitulation idea. IOW, they were called "gill slits" NOT because of anything to do with reality, but because of everything to do with wanting something to be true.
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03-04-2005, 01:14 PM | #170 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-04-2005, 01:24 PM | #171 | |||
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Thank you for the note that you paraphrased me, tho - it's important, esp. in these types of discussions, to accurately quote others, and if you don't know the quote then it's good to note it's a paraphrase, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-04-2005, 01:26 PM | #172 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-04-2005, 01:29 PM | #173 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Rian - that is one example of natural selection. There may have been flaws in the conclusion - but there were a number of experiments performed (something I never saw mentioned in the creationist websites that paint a VERY one sided picture of the experiment). Do you deny that natural selection exists? Can you admit that there are MAJOR flaws in the "popped out of thin air from some mystical being" theory you support? There is no scientific basis for that "popped out of thin air" theory - other than belief. And belief is not science.
See all the sites that condemn the experiments outright are all supporters of creaionism. It's as if the only way they can support their claim is by saying "see - there experiment was flawed, we're therefore right" It doesn't work that way. Where are the scientific studies that support creationsim - WITHOUT having to resort to dragging evolution through the mud? The Theory of Evolution only talks about the fossil record and the evidence that is at hand and comes up with a hypothesis - it doesn't have to resort to attacking creationism to back up their claims.
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03-04-2005, 01:37 PM | #174 | |
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And I have read your posts - for 2 years and counting - you have never provided evidence of creationism other than through a belief in god or by knocking evolution in some way. You have never, nor have I seen on any creationist website - be able to back up creationsim on it's own merits. The only thing you guys can do is pick apart some experiments or to say the fossil record is incomplete or that evolution is unproveble because we can't observe it. There is much we understand about physics and so forth that we can not fully observe.
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03-04-2005, 01:39 PM | #175 | |
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03-04-2005, 01:41 PM | #176 | |||
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The theory of evolution has several components (natural selection, beneficial mutation, etc.), and I think we have to be careful and accurate what part(s) we're saying are supported by evidence as we discuss various experiments.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-04-2005, 01:45 PM | #177 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-04-2005, 01:52 PM | #178 | |||
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Another example is our blood corpuscles and the chlorophyll of plants. They resemble one another quite a lot when it comes to structure and it seems our blood and chlorophyll have a common evolutionary past. It is probable that when life forms developed that no longer needed sunlight to get their glucose, they had no use for chlorophyll and through evolution their chlorophyll eventually obtained the properties of blood. Quote:
I'm a biomed student and am more into biochemistry than math/computers, so don't skip any important mathematical details please [edit] Quote:
[edit] How could there have been a day/night cycle without a sun?
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03-04-2005, 02:00 PM | #179 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Rian - here is your quote....
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This is another example of Rian trying to explain why she believes in creationism, not by scientific study - but by belief in god. Quote:
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03-04-2005, 02:08 PM | #180 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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