03-22-2005, 04:43 PM | #161 |
The Intermittent One
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one boy was Sporus that he married, nd i forget the name of the other man, but he was Nero's freedman
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03-22-2005, 08:58 PM | #162 | |
Elf Lord
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We have been over this ground before. Apparently we need research for people who ignore history, sociology, culture, and tradition. That's to establish the intergender nature of marriage in all cultures. Remember?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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03-22-2005, 11:16 PM | #163 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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When our researchers are studying new drugs, they examine them very closely to make sure what, if any, harmful side-affects there might be before they introduce them to society. It would be an irresponsible researcher that said, "there should be a preponderence of evidence against this before we introduce it!" Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-22-2005 at 11:18 PM. |
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03-23-2005, 03:41 PM | #164 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
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03-23-2005, 04:34 PM | #165 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Given that, I fail to see what reason exists for preventing homosexual marriage on account of the lack of a "masculine" or "feminine" influence on children that might be adopted. Given that in turn, I fail to see what reason exists for banning homosexual marriage: it's a private action which doesn't appear to have any negative effects on anyone else... since I also fail to see how it affects anyone other than the gays themselves and any children that might be involved in the union.
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03-23-2005, 07:57 PM | #166 | |
The Intermittent One
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03-24-2005, 03:09 PM | #167 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, since you all around reject the idea of collecting data and studies on this issue, how do you know your opinion to be true? I know that Inked has already posted a fair amount of data on these types of threads, showing the negative impact upon society of homosexual marriage in other countries. Quote:
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It is obvious that heterosexual marriages work out fine. It is dead obvious, just like with the bandages. With the doormat . . . we don't know, and you won't let us know, because you won't have studies taken. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 03:41 PM | #168 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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This homosexual marriage thing is much the same. Marriage would be a state declaration that this is fine, and just as good as heterosexual marriage. It is submitting a commercial that something is good without knowing that it is. The audience for the commercial is the United States. This problem is only one of the problems. There are good reasons to think that the homosexual relationship is not at all the same, which is like knowing there are good reasons to believe the car's roof can't really hold. Even if homosexual relationships are healthy and good (which we don't know), it is very likely that they are different from heterosexual relationships simply because of the gender difference, and may require different laws made for them because of this. Else we may land in a legal nightmare. I think that we shouldn't keep our blinders on, but should look closely at what we're getting into before we plunge our country headlong into it. Quote:
Yes, I have no problem with discrimination provided that there's a very valid reason for it. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 04:07 PM | #169 | |
Word Santa Claus
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But Lief, smoking is different from homosexual marriage in many ways: not least of which is that I can die from your second-hand smoke just by being in the same room with it. My parents' marriage is not going to dissolve from my cousins getting to marry. The situations are not analogous just because both have effects shown on the subject and the subject's family. I would posit that the ONLY real effects of homosexual marriage are on the homosexuals and their families, while smoking and such things can have broadcast effects.
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Given that, a situation in which it is already established that homosexuals CAN adopt and raise children regardless of marital status, I find no reason why how they raise children should affect whether they can marry. Personally, I believe they can raise children quite well (as you've probably figured out by now ) but regardless, that is not specifically germaine to the topic of homosexual marriage because it is already legal.
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03-24-2005, 04:47 PM | #170 | |||||
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Now, I also would remark that the gender difference impacts those people who take part in homosexuality as well as the children. A man cannot get the same thing from a man as he could from a woman. Anyway, I need to get offline at the moment.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 04:51 PM | #171 | ||
The Intermittent One
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03-24-2005, 05:00 PM | #172 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 05:02 PM | #173 | |
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03-24-2005, 05:07 PM | #174 | |||||||||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-24-2005, 05:13 PM | #175 | |||||||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-24-2005, 07:14 PM | #176 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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IR, if you want to examine heterosexual marriages, go right ahead. It's been around since the beginning of humanity, so it seems to me that a test is unnecessary. If you want to test it though, go right ahead. If you have 10,000 heterosexual marriages that aren't working out, I'd say that's an awfully small number . But that's a useless response of course, not addressing your point at all. If you can find strong enough reasons to keep heterosexuals from marrying, you'll convince the legislature to get working and heterosexual marriages will be made illegal. Go for it. I also do most definitely agree with you that one must examine heterosexual relationships in order to evaluate homosexual ones. If we didn't do that, we would have nothing to compare homosexual relationships with. You say, "marriages are marriages, bandages are bandages." You say the analogy would be correct if one bandage were applied to two different people. This would be an incorrect analogy, because we do not know that heterosexual and homosexual relationships are the same. Your assumption, your firmly felt belief without evidence, is all you've got. We cannot know whether the relationships are the same or not because you and others like you refuse to support the adoption of studies in this case. You insist instead upon your unsupported belief that they are the heterosexual and homosexual relationships are the same.
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I did not say we should place a blanket ban on all homosexual relationships. I wrote earlier in this thread that I don't mind laws being made involving homosexual relationships. I think it would be doing them a service also for these studies to be taken comparing and contrasting their relationships to heterosexual relationships, because they won't find themselves jammed into legal positions they don't really want. For example, Inked posed evidence earlier on that homosexuals tend to switch partners more rapidly then heterosexuals. If this is true, then the distribution of property laws involved in divorce wouldn't be particularly heavy handed on homosexual couples. If a different status was given to homosexuals, different rights, we'd be avoiding the legal problems and making everyone better off- both heterosexual and homosexual couples. I don't think we have the right to judge between homosexual relationships. If some new legal status were created for them, it would not be saying some homosexuals were allowed to take part in it and some weren't. It wouldn't be discriminatory. In the same way, marriage should not be discriminatory between heterosexuals (except when they're too young, or too closely related, you know, all that). These are a good reason to do the studies. If we do the studies and find that there are clearly observable differences between heterosexual and homosexual couples, we'd be doing the homosexuals a service by giving them the new status. On the other hand, if we found that there weren't such differences and wasn't any greater of negative impact on society then heterosexual marriages have, then they can be given the full legal status of heterosexuals involved in marriage. These are the important answers such studies I hope could provide us. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 07:16 PM | #177 |
Elf Lord
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By the way, IR, what is your Avatar representing?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-24-2005, 07:17 PM | #178 | |
The Intermittent One
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03-24-2005, 07:25 PM | #179 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 07:39 PM | #180 | |||
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Yeah, brainwashing and/or abusing someone is definitely non-genetic.
I respect you Lief, I just heartily disagree with your opinion on this matter. Quote:
I agree with you that being gay isn't genetic.
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