01-15-2003, 04:49 PM | #161 | |||
The Original Corruptor
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Last edited by Andúril : 01-15-2003 at 04:52 PM. |
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01-15-2003, 05:51 PM | #162 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Actually, I just posted the first word (i.e., "no") of my stunningly clever response - the response I had composed contained several sentences and even had a few big words in it. I will reserve the response in case you ever DO ask the question, and then I can triumphantly bring it out, and amaze people not only with the cleverness of it, but with the sheer rapidity with which I answer the question
*aren't women irritating *
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-15-2003, 06:00 PM | #163 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Y'know, I just realized that this is the opposite of what usually happens - you know how usually the response is thought of an hour or so later, after the other person has already left? Well, this time, I thought of the response BEFORE the person asked the question! Pretty amazing of me, isn't it!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-15-2003, 06:00 PM | #164 |
The Elven Queen Of All Pyros
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religion
I was raised a reform jew...and i had a bat mitzvah (which was fun ) but now i am seriously considering being a wiccan, i have done a couple of circles, but i have to decide if i want to take it more seriously. Contrary to beleive, wiccans are no satan worshipers...there is a g-d and a g-ddess that we beleive in.
I dont really care wut religion anyone is, because most of us (but not all) beleive in a g-d or g-ds but in a diffrent form
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Would you judge my future based on what i did in the past? Procrastinators Unite!!!.....tomorrrow.... Kids in backseats cause accidents...accidents in backseats cause kids As long as there are tests..there will be prayers in school |
01-15-2003, 06:12 PM | #165 |
The Original Corruptor
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RÃ*an,
How long until my Silmarillian, Unfinished Tales, and HoME: part 1 arrive? I ordered them from Amazon.co.uk, and you know where I live... |
01-15-2003, 06:17 PM | #166 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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for Coney's clogs...
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But can you see from our explanations that I really think that it's NOT a case of non-Christians knocking on the door of heaven, begging to get in, but rather a case of a determined refusal on their side to enter heaven, which is where God's reign is completely visible and evident (and it is a joyous thing to have such a great and holy ruler, and nothing but joy for the Christian to be in His presence). Can you get an inkling of that picture at all? Quote:
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The point is that Heaven and Hell are a REALITY (of course, I'm speaking of the Christian point of view (which is right, BTW ) and not speaking that way to force my opinion on everyone - I'm trying to explain how the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell is logical and fair), and God is loving and just and has provided a way for salvation (which happens to mean you will spend eternity in heaven) as a free gift, but the gift CANNOT be forced on people that don't want it - and for those that freely choose to not accept His gift, the only other option is Hell. Does that make sense? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-15-2003 at 06:39 PM. |
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01-15-2003, 06:19 PM | #167 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-15-2003, 08:29 PM | #168 | |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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01-15-2003, 08:47 PM | #169 | |
The Insufferable
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Re: religion
Quote:
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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01-16-2003, 01:11 AM | #170 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Good point, Wayfarer - (it took me a second to get it, tho ) - and looking back over this thread, I see that both EG and markedel said "Jew", too. And I should have added that I'm NOT interested in being PC, but I would want to know if a term is offensive/hurtful to someone that I know - and "Jew" has certainly been used in a derogatory way by certain groups of people, unfortunately.
(ps - has anyone tried out the "nickel, dime and ...." riddle out on anyone? It worked quite successfully for me, when it was spoken - typed didn't work so well!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-16-2003 at 03:25 AM. |
01-16-2003, 01:11 AM | #171 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Legolas Frodo Aragorn (I guess you don't play favorites, huh? :P), that brings up another question: How is Wiccan pronounced? Since cc is sometimes pronounced as ch and sometimes as k, I've been wondering which it is in Wicca.
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01-16-2003, 01:22 AM | #172 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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back to Andúril ...
*********** * . POST . IS.* * DONE NOW* *********** ** ** ** ** \\\\**////// (ps - that's grass growing at the bottom of the post) (stupid space-remover algorithm - I can't center it like I want to) Now I'm going to go back to the post that I posted a few days ago but got interrupted and asked people to not comment on it and you-know-who commented on it anyway and I whacked him over the head for it with my LoTR book ... (whew) "weak" omnipotence???? What I'm going to talk about in this post (and maybe more, if I hit the post length limit) is my objection to your "weak omnipotence" and "strong omnipotence" terms. I think that they are entirely irrelevant to what we are discussing (as I will explain below). I'm going to take quotes from two of your posts; they both may be found on page 4 of this thread. ------------------------------------- Quote:
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RÃ*an's responses: (out of order, just for the fun of it) (10) - (12), (6), (13) : What you're missing in this whole thing is the difference between "can" - have power to; and "can" - to be likely to (both defs are in Webster's dictionary). God is physically able to lie, of course; however, because of his holy character, He CANNOT lie (i.e., He is absolutely not likely to). There is NO incompatibility in these statements; therefore, your (12) is not a valid conclusion. Let me give a real-life example. I don't know if you have a sister or not in real life. Let's pretend that you do, if you don't, and what's more, that you love her more than anyone else in the entire world. Can you torture, rape and murder her? Yes, you are physically able to (unless you are paralyzed or stopped by some physical disability, which I assume you're not). BUT - can (in the other since of 'are you likely to') you torture, rape and murder her? Of course not - it is COMPLETELY against your character and desire! It is absolutely NO diminution of God's omnipotence to say that He CANNOT do something against His character! This logic also kills (6) and (13). (I better start another post, I can tell this next one is going to be long...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-16-2003 at 03:24 AM. |
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01-16-2003, 03:07 AM | #173 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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back to Andúril ... (con't)
(1) I thoroughly disagree with this statement - where did you get the term "strong omnipotence", BTW? Out of what dictionary or widely-accepted textbook? (BTW, your link just seems to refer to a post that YOU made on another thread on a Christian discussion board; is that correct?) How can "all-powerful" be related to something that is sheer nonsense, even if it is "syntactically possible"? YOU YOURSELF said in (16) that illogical things CANNOT EXIST IN REALITY, and I completely agree with that. Let us stick to the realm of reality here - I'm not interested in talking about things that are not real.
C.S. Lewis, in The Problem of Pain, deals with this subject very well, IMO, and I'll quote him here (italics are his): Quote:
And actually, I think I'll close with a comment on your (14) by saying: I'm sure glad that neither 'weak omnipotence' nor 'strong omnipotence' are helping ME out - but REAL omnipotence! And I'm done editing both posts now - I'll leave my sign up, though, because it came out so cute, IMHO, but I'll change the wording on it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-16-2003 at 01:19 PM. |
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01-16-2003, 07:29 AM | #174 |
The Original Corruptor
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I'll begin my response by providing my understanding of those concepts that I have referred to. I'll reply to your posts afterwards.
Strong Omnipotence This concept refers most often to:
Strong omnipotence is an illogical concept. It encompasses actions and states of affair that lack logical integrity, as it is clear that all describable actions and things, and all states of affair are not necessarily coherent. This characteristic is not always mentioned explicitly, but very often implicitly. For example, some refer to a God that can perform actions that would fall outside even the realm of logical possibilities, suggesting that God created this realm and can change it at will. They do not always refer to this ability by the name "strong omnipotence", but that is exactly what it is. An interesting scenario would be the hypothetical encounter of two strongly omnipotent beings (B and N). B wishes to walk in a straight line, but N desires to stop B from doing so. Now what? To sum up, strong omnipotence fails to exclude actions that are inherently illogical and scenarios that are logically impossible. Weak Omnipotence Very often referred to as:
This, however, is not the case. Consider a being that is defined as omniscient. Since this being already knows the truth value of all propositions, it is impossible to learn additional truth values. When someone asks "can an omniscient being learn?" the act of learning is assumed to be an concept that remains coherent regardless of the scenario. But, since there exists no propositions of which the truth value is not known by an omniscient being, the act of "learning" for such a being is rendered meaningless. It is not rendered meaningless for other non-omniscient entities, only those for whom there exists no realm of unknown facts. Therefore, for an omniscient being X to learn, it requires that X perform an illogical action. It is impossible for X to learn anything if everything there is to be known is known by X. Strong omnipotence must be used if X is to learn. The second definition is very similar, but it takes into account the issue of logical relativity by refering to the inclusive nature of a state of affairs as opposed to the exclusive nature of the agent and action. In order to determine what a weakly omnipotent being can do, one must be aware of two things:
Consider this: X has previously been defined as omniscient. Since X knows everything there is to know, to X there no longer exists anything that is unknown, and this renders meaningless "to learn" relative to X because learning requires something to be unknown. If X is not defined as omniscient, then there exists things which are not known to X, and the act "to learn" becomes a logical possibility (unless additional attributes/scenarios negate that act). The more attributes a being has, the more scenarios (or states of affair) cross over into the realm of illogic. Last edited by Andúril : 01-16-2003 at 04:25 PM. |
01-16-2003, 07:31 AM | #175 |
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The major problem with weak omnipotence is that it includes such agents as humans. When you take into account weak omnipotence principles by taking those concepts and scenarios that are inherently illogical, and adding them to the realm of illogic that has been essentially "created" by the human attributes (and in keeping with the relativity issue, the attributes of individual humans), you end up with weakly omnipotent humans.
Weak omnipotence does not indicate a set amount of power or ability. It is a relative concept, and in essence means: The ability to perform any action that can be performed by that agent. Using less strict phraseology, we come to the conclusion: A weakly omnipotent being can do what it can do. Thus weak omnipotence is largely useless. It is a tautological concept, involving the equations: (Let S = set of abilities)
Conclusion According to my understanding of these concepts, some characteristic other than strong or weak omnipotence (as discussed here) must be attributed to God in order to define a being that is supposed to be much more powerful than humans. Last edited by Andúril : 01-16-2003 at 04:24 PM. |
01-16-2003, 07:48 AM | #176 |
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Well, the way I read that, there is no logical way there can be a God. Wishful thinking on the human beings part?
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 01-16-2003 at 07:51 AM. |
01-16-2003, 09:51 AM | #177 |
The Elven Queen Of All Pyros
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its wicca(wika) im at school..so i gtg..sorry to not explain anything more
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Would you judge my future based on what i did in the past? Procrastinators Unite!!!.....tomorrrow.... Kids in backseats cause accidents...accidents in backseats cause kids As long as there are tests..there will be prayers in school |
01-16-2003, 10:23 AM | #178 | |||||||
The Original Corruptor
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But very soon after this, he switches to a version of strong omnipotence. By saying that there is no limit to God's power, he is admitting that God has infinite power. One wonders if Lewis ever considered if God's power was constrained to logically possible acts... Indeed he has! Instead of explicitly mentioning illogic or logical impossibility or incoherency, etc., he uses the word "nonsense". Thus God's power is limited to that which is not nonsensical. So God's power is limited, and Lewis has contradicted his prior statement. Lewis has swung from weak omnipotence, to strong, and back to weak. Such re-defining involves rare skill. RÃ*an, just out of curiousity, did Lewis back up his assertions with scripture, or is that passage meant to stand on its own? Last edited by Andúril : 01-16-2003 at 02:57 PM. |
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01-16-2003, 10:53 AM | #179 | ||
The Buddy Rabbit
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A Shekal for Your Thoughts.....
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God cast down the only being brave enough to question his judgement (Lucifer) and it seems that he will cast down anyone else who will not blindly follow his desires.......God is vengeful especially to those who will not bow in supplication. Quote:
We'll start at the tip (so to speak).....Circumsicion...Sorry but anyone who takes a blade and mutilates a perfectly healthy 8 day old baby is sick...if this is how God recognises his true children then the being needs to have serious words with himself. All the omni's ....... this just makes me laugh to be honest. From the Apple feast in the Garden of Eden to Cain killing Able right through to the worship of Baal by Gods Chosen.......Where was God? The same God whom populated the earth then ignored man until he felt the need to flood the entire earth and start from scratch......The same God who waited until his people were hunted battered and starved before he finally decided to give them direction by handing the Ten Commandments to his followers.......if God does have the power to be ever-present and all-knowing then he has a very perverse way of using this power. I wouldn't sit and watch a child playing in the highway.....I can predict the outcome, dead kid..........God is all knowing yet never once did he prevent Genocide and mass murder.......in fact he often caused the events Himself. The Lord is My Shepard I shall not want..........if you ask me he left the penn open and sent the wayward flocks to the slaughter house. To Be Continued...... |
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01-16-2003, 11:13 AM | #180 | ||
The Buddy Rabbit
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Buddy can you spare a Shekal?....
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yrs piously Coney! Last edited by Coney : 01-16-2003 at 11:33 AM. |
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