12-17-2007, 06:09 PM | #161 | |
Elf Lord
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Obviously, reconstruction of Iraq has been very much delayed by internal violence. Thus security has been the number 1 priority for our forces in Iraq. In the months since our troop surge this year, violence has diminished significantly in the country. That is not a future improvement but a current improvement with current consequences for the Iraqi people.
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12-18-2007, 06:24 AM | #162 |
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I agree with Lief here, in that oil is the main priority, and I think we're seeing the true motives behind the war in the first place.
But I think it's absolutely disgraceful to see the hawks congratulating themselves. Violence is still far worse than it was before the war, civil society is still far worse, utilities, unemployment, refugees (internal and external) etc etc. 4K American lives, up to 1m Iraqis, long-term political and economic instability and a probable Shia state emerging within Iran's sphere of influence, and we're not even back at square one yet. Nice going. |
12-18-2007, 01:15 PM | #163 | |||
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I suspect that oil has been very high on the list of things to fix up in Iraq, though. Quote:
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Besides, many of the things you have just blamed the US for actually are primarily the responsibility of insurgents in Iraq. They are the killers that are purposefully targeting civilians, trying to start civil war, fomenting anarchy, and seeking to create political and economic instability. The US is working hard to prevent all of those things. Shia and Sunni militias, Al Qaeda remnants, Saddam loyalists and others are the real forces to blame for the destruction in Iraq. The US should be praised for withstanding attacks from Iraqis and working to repair Iraq in spite of them.
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12-18-2007, 05:29 PM | #164 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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You really have to look big picture. For all of Saddam's faults he did serve some major economic, and security, purposes. Purposes which George Bush Sr. understood. 1) He was ruthless, but that's what was needed to hold the Shia, Sunni and Kurds together. 2) He was basically a secular leader, with very little ties to muslim extremism. 3) He had no ties to Al Qaeda. 4) He provided a balance to Iran. Their hatred for one another kept both in check. As a result of invasion, we've destabilized the whole region and possibly even spurred on more muslim extremism than existed beforehand. If Pakistan and/or Iran falls to muslim rule, we will have been the spark that ignited the fire. We've gained nothing over the past five or so years, and lost a lot.
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12-18-2007, 06:57 PM | #165 |
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Yes, Lief you seem to be keen on taking an historical perspective (i.e. things are terrible now, but they'll get better).
But any study of history would show that little things like invading another country have consequences. Everyone who opposed the war at the time it was being contemplated made this point and has, unfortunately, been proven correct. It's simply disingenuous to blame the Iraqis for their own insurgency. And the thing is, it didn't need to be even this bad. If they had only had basic competence at a senior political level in the US, there would have been a proper plan for afterwards. Unfortunately, this was not the case. |
12-18-2007, 07:23 PM | #166 |
The Black Númenórean
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Well, BJ, Iran has fallen to Muslim rule, it fell in 1979. And Pakistan is something I'd be even more worried about, seeing as they already have Nukes and a destablized government.
And second, Saddam did not hold the kurds to anything, they were doing their own thing long before th US came. Now the only thing I'm worried about is Turkey taking their long standing dislike of th Kurds to a new level, an attacking the Kurdish state in Iraq. Then **** will hit the fan in a way that will leave you flabberghasted.
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12-20-2007, 02:10 PM | #167 | ||||||||
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Saddam annihilated the big Shia uprising in 1991 and also crushed Kurds he thought were a potential threat to him in 1988 and 1987. As with the current Iraq War, the casualty figures from the 1991 uprising vary widely. Some say 30,000 were killed. Others 300,000. When he crushed the Kurds, 50,000 to 100,000 were killed. Here's a list of the death toll under Saddam's rulership: Quote:
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True. Quote:
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If, on the other hand, we elect Obama president and then invade Pakistan, I may well agree with you. Quote:
One has to get the country up to its previous condition before one can move it on to a better condition. Quote:
You insist on condemning those indirectly responsible, and though every liberal I have ever talked to about this has blamed the US, only one of them has ever spoken of the insurgents as bearing the primary responsibility. Most ignore the responsibility of the insurgents completely. The US neither wanted nor meant for an insurgency to exist, though it knew that civil disorder was likely and tried to prevent it. The US is spending a great deal of blood and money to try to fix Iraq and make it free and prosperous, is doing all it can to heal the wounds and repair the damage. You should be spending your time praising the heroic effort that the US is right now engaged in, in Iraq, whether you agree with the original invasion or not! Unfortunately, only one of the all liberals I've ever debated with has mentioned the primary responsibility of the insurgents themselves, those who are purposefully creating almost all of the havoc we are presently striving to end. Most liberals I've spoken with about Iraq instead blame the US for everything. This whole situation is just absurd. If the world condemns the US for invading Iraq because of the harm that did Iraqis, it should praise the US for staying there to try to help Iraqis. If you care for Iraqis so much, then why are you trying to get us out of Iraq quickly instead of letting our efforts to save Iraqi lives proceed? It is our efforts that are keeping the country from completely destroying itself.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-20-2007 at 02:28 PM. |
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12-20-2007, 04:42 PM | #168 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Too funny.
Do some real research into the stuff you quote Lief.
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12-21-2007, 01:09 AM | #169 |
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12-21-2007, 05:23 AM | #170 | |
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(That, of course, is classic right-wing smokescreen tactics. "You are against the war therefore you are against the troops". Cheap patrio-fascism.) But it's a difficult question for those who objected to the war on moral principle: how can one justify the continuation of an immoral act? However, given that we are where we are, wouldn't it just make things worse if we did the "morally right" thing and withdrew? On the one hand, those who committed the crime are best placed to make reparations, yet it may be that, on the other hand, as long as we have a presence in the country, we are part of the problem. Again, it's disingenuous to claim that we do not have primary responsibility for the militancy. We provide its raison d'etre. Ultimately, the only moral answer, in my view, is something similar to that proposed by the Iraq Study Group. But that involves *shock, horror* talking to Iran and Syria, instead of indulging in mindless tub-thumping, so it's clearly beyond the wit of the current regime. |
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12-21-2007, 01:08 PM | #171 | |||||
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We are the secondary cause. The people involved are the primary cause. Even if we opened up a possibility for chaos, it was others who deliberately created that chaos, and we are doing all in our power to resist those people. The US should be being praised right now for what it is doing in the present in the liberal community, but instead, many express their concern for the Iraqis they say we've been pulverizing by saying we should pull out immediately.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-21-2007 at 01:16 PM. |
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12-21-2007, 02:18 PM | #172 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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If you shoot someone in the foot, is it okay if you then call an ambulance for them? Our first error was invading in the first place. Our second error was bad planning for a future Iraq without Saddam. Our third error was dragging our feet for years before addressing our second error. Our current error is assuming that a momentary lapse in violence, when we have not addressed the root causes, is going to lead to a positive future in and of itself.
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03-14-2008, 08:06 PM | #173 | |
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a) Al Quaeda weren't in Iraq until we were there. b) We have killed thousands of civilians. Bombs do not discriminate civilians from Al Quaeda c) Many more have been killed indirectly: by the effects of the collapse of civil society, as widely predicted by everyone who had any sense prior to the invasion. You know, you (in common with the Right in general) write as if you think people like me hate America, or want America to lose, and that is the most disgusting allegation. It implies an utter contempt for debate, and a wanton disregard for human lives. |
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03-15-2008, 02:28 PM | #174 | ||||
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According to a new pentagon report says....
Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously, operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist-operatives monitored closely. Because Saddam's security organizations and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some way, a "de facto" link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the collapse of the regime.But that's not the original reason we went there. It is a good reason not to leave though, which would allow Al Qaeda, or Iran, or that other slimebag to take over. Or whatever combination of them. Quote:
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03-16-2008, 06:41 AM | #175 | |
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03-17-2008, 03:24 AM | #176 |
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It's at the very end of the appendix, on the second to last page of this document.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-17-2008, 04:43 AM | #177 | |
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Innocent people die when you have a war. History 101. You don't have to intend them to die for them to inconveniently die when your bombs fall on their houes. Yet you seem to persist in the belief that "we" ("Coalition", which includes the UK) did not kill any innocent civilians. That is the delusion that staggers me. Look out for a documentary called "Iraq by Numbers", by Rageh Omaar. It's on the BBC this week so might be out wordlwide sometime thereafter. One of his "numbers" is that 47% of Iraqi households have had a member die since the invasion. 47%. Think about that. If you scaled that up to the US it would be about 50 million people. Still, collateral damage eh? A regrettable loss of life. |
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03-17-2008, 09:14 PM | #178 |
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Almost everyone you're talking about was not killed by the US. They were killed by insurgents that the US is spending many lives and a great deal of money to stop, so that we can rebuild Iraq.
Also, I have not agreed that we invaded Iraq in order to get oil. I think that Saddam's terrorist links are a big part of why we invaded. Now if it was some place like Somalia that was funding terrorism, we'd probably be less likely to attack, because they are a pretty small and very poor country, so they'd be less of a threat to us. Iraq, on the other hand, has a lot of oil resources that can be used to create an environment of fear in the Middle East, if those funds are used to support terrorists. They also could have been used to finance the development of chemical or biological weapons, and there is still dispute as to whether or not they were being used for those purposes. The report hector brought up shows that Al Qaeda and Saddam were working together on a low-level basis. There wasn't direct coordination. Saddam does seem to have had links with Al Qaeda, though, and seems to have operated with them on a low level basis. Saddam was directly supporting other terrorist groups, though, including Palestinian groups that had killed US citizens before. The links with terror are very serious to me, just as Iran's are, because Iran and Iraq alike have a lot of oil. Iran can, and does, use that to fund terrorist networks.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-17-2008, 10:16 PM | #179 |
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Get this: I was talking to this Sudanese student at my college. He's spent most of his life in Sudan. He's no fan of the Iraq war or Bush, certainly.
Anyways, he was telling me that his brother in law in Sudan, who was a christian...became Muslim. Why? Because Muslims are very rich in Sudan, and they give a lot of money to people who convert and who convert others, to Islam. He said it was a fad of sorts, over there (he didn't use "fad" obviously). Anyhow, his brother in law became very rich by converting others to Islam. Well, this lasted for about five years. And then his brother in law decided he didnt want to be Muslim anymore. He converted back to christianity. Well, he was imprisoned for that (and the three-story house etc taken back from him). He says normally he'd have been killed, but there is enough of a christian political presence to prevent that. Strange.
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03-18-2008, 01:55 AM | #180 |
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Not so strange. I've heard a lot of stories like that involving the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Religious freedom is an Enlightenment idea. The only reason it's practiced at all in the Middle East is because the European superpowers in the last two or three centuries went there with superior firepower and economics and lassoed them into change. But it's still not practiced in a number of countries, and it's often rejected on a grassroots level, even in pretty modernized Muslim states.
Religious freedom wasn't a part of Christian beliefs either, for that matter, until the end of the Religious Wars. It started beginning to exist in the 17th century, and it came into force seriously in the 18th, especially when America established the idea in the Constitution. That's one and a half thousand years, from the time of Christ to the Enlightenment, where Christians didn't practice it. The Jews that the Christians sprang from didn't practice religious freedom either, and it was emphatically rejected in the Old Covenant Law. It's really an extremely new philosophy, though it has been practiced in small spurts here and there at various points in history before this. Constantine the First established it in the Roman Empire briefly. I'll respond to your post in more detail in the Theology Thread. I have more thoughts on this that I want to relate, but I don't want to throw us strongly off-topic here. I agree with you about it being very peculiar and unfortunate that they treat religion so lightly that they'll throw it around for money. That is similar to stories I've heard from Egypt, where families can't get jobs because they're Christian, though I hadn't heard of actual bribes. I've certainly heard of a lot of pressure on Christians in those places, though. What you're saying sounds quite similar. And it is horrible.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-18-2008 at 01:58 AM. |
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