UK Politics

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet Hitler was arguebly a terrorist. Blair isn't. Hitler wanted to kill and Blair doesn't. There is a distinctive difference.

Who said anything that it had to be Blair that abused the system? It can be decades from now - after the cameras - there will be something else that people will say "well it's not really a big deal - we already have the cameras - what will this hurt?"

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I merely said Blair as he is the PM and this is a thread about UK Polotics.

[Nurvingiel]

The situation in which Hiter came into power is very different from Britain today.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

At some point, you have to trust the government.

You trust the government only so far. You trust that there are things in place that prevent certain actions from occurring. I like our Supreme Court for the most part - I look at what it strikes down as unconstitutional - I see that there is a debate on the Patriot Act. If those things stopped - then I would be concerned. However - from what I have seen in Europe and in particular in Britain with the security cameras - there is very little debate.

There is a reason why the US still uses the dollar bill and now has TWO failed one dollar coins - because we the people control much more of our government than other countries do. And we do not want the coins and have therefore refused to use them.

There are corrupt cops out there, but pretty much all of them are just trying to do their jobs as best they can. I think a similar system would apply to security cameras.

As I keep asking - how much freedom and privacy are you willing to give up though? It's not going to stop at the security cameras - someone will suggest other steps other technology - other infringements on your privacy and freedoms - all in name of the "public good".

I mean... there's no guarantee that someone from the government isn't reading our posts right now! Hey... is this your tinfoil hat?

Well there isn't anything illegal about reading our posts- this is an open board.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

The situation in which Hiter came into power is very different from Britain today.

That doesn't mean in the future that no one can come to power in britain who will abuse the freedoms and privacy british citizens were so willing to give up today though.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Who said anything that it had to be Blair that abused the system? It can be decades from now - after the cameras - there will be something else that people will say "well it's not really a big deal - we already have the cameras - what will this hurt?"

Generally cameras are there to help us, not to exploit us.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Generally cameras are there to help us, not to exploit us.

So say you right now - anything to guarantee that will always be the case?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, but if this does become a problem there are many people to be trusted in the government. They won't let a nation become exploited like that. There isn't anything to guarentee it though but there also isn't anything to guarentee that America will bomb England tomorrow is there, yet this is unlikely. Your theory may not be as extreme as this yet the British people won't elect some one who will do this to us.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

No, but if this does become a problem there are many people to be trusted in the government. They won't let a nation become exploited like that.

Who would have forseen a Hitler gaining power in Germany though. An ENTIRE country relinquished their freedoms and control to him. Don't think it's entirely impossible.

As a for instance - I do not fully support the patriot act- nor am I completely against it. I would feel much safer if it was made into something that had to come before congress every so many years and be renewed. I do not think that what is in the Patriot Act would be required forever. Extreme measures have to be taken into account at times of war though.

There isn't anything to guarentee it though but there also isn't anything to guarentee that America will bomb England tomorrow is there, yet this is unlikely.

It's not likely - but it doesn't mean we won't be enemies in the future. We've actually only been allies for around 100 years - the 125 years before that we were enemies.

Your theory may not be as extreme as this yet the British people won't elect some one who will do this to us.

I'm sure russia didn't forsee them getting Lenin and Stalin and 50 years of bread lines too when they stood up and deposed the Czar. Things happen slowly over time - to where the changes are no noticed until it's too late and it's impossible to get back what was lost.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet these things could be happening anywhere, not just Britain.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet these things could be happening anywhere, not just Britain.

Yes they can - but the scary thing I find is the lack of debate or concern from what I have seen of the British government just putting security cameras all over the place in the name of the "public good". So in that respect we are talking about Britain. In the US - there have been talk of doing the same thing - but there has been a huge outcry against personal privacy and potential abuse by the government. There seems to be none of this discussion in Britain.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe the British are slightly more trusting than the Americans. I'm not sure. But I haven't heard anyone object to security cameras so at the moment we must be fine with it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Maybe the British are slightly more trusting than the Americans. I'm not sure. But I haven't heard anyone object to security cameras so at the moment we must be fine with it.

As I said - our country was founded BECAUSE of government abuse (namely Britain's abuse against us)- that is why we have a mistrust of government and those in power. The thing I want to ask now - since you say "at the moment we must be fine with it" - what happens if afterward the people are not fine with it? What happens if the government starts using them for more than what they were initially intended for? Will you even recognize your freedoms and privacy being infringed upon - or will people someday look back and say "wow - look at what freedoms we have lost".

[inked]

repost/response

"Now, the world's (not just the UK, but the entire world's) problems are all due to one, and only one cause. LIFE.

LIFE is a 100% terminal SEXUALLY-TRANSMITTED disease.

If the governments of GB et alia can eliminate sex, within one generation they will have eliminated poverty, war, crime, disease, and the whole host of problems associated with verminous humans. Such a solution would be the ultimate in
EQUALITY - social/political/gender/legal/et cetera ad nauseum discriminations
would be eliminated;
JUSTICE - same principle applied to everyone ('course the next generation won't gripe 'cause it won't exist);
LIBERTY - all existent humans will be able to choose their final destination
(pardon me for suggesting there are two!).

So, eh? Shall we have GB apply the concept first and observe? Surely someone in your nanny-state will see the proposal and seek to act on it?"

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Might I suggest France instead - we sort of need Britain in our fight against terrorism. Let's do the experiment in a country that always gives us problems instead.

very sensible JD; and sun-star has rather innocently suggested that it was France's vengefulness after WWI that led to WWII thereby throwing additional weight to the idea of reparations by persons not responsible for their past history ( a la reparations for slavery discussed under political correctness thread) SO I am quite prepared to admit that it be France first!

Also, though I failed to note the effect on cigarette smoking it will solve that problem in its entirety as well.

IN FACT, I AM SURPRISED AT THE LACK OF ENTHUSIASM FOR THIS SOLUTION TO ALL PROBLEMS - especially the surveillance camera thingy. And the speed trap, especially!

In all seriousness now. The ill effects of smoking were not linked to cancers except indirectly as in chimneysweeps and skin cancers from residual tars until smoking became widespread during and after WWI. The time lag was crucial and it was normal for the USA to issue cigarettes (oh, and condoms) to service personnel in WWII. The world wide mortality rate was generally set at age 40 yrs, so it wasn't until the survival of WWI vets and increases in cancers with autopsy driven linkages and large scale studies on WWII era people suggested the linkage. Smoking was once considered healthful and an aid to digestion in the interwar period but came under increasing attack post-1960 here in the USA (land of the semi-free smoking restrictions). So, it is a phenomenon of the longevity of the WWI-forward era.

Note that in the 3rd world where mortality remains very much unchanged, smoking is quite popular and first-world suppliers do their best for the largest market share.

It is very much an individual decision, I think. (I mean, if your government security cameras are capable of peeking into your windows, wouldn't you rather they caught you in flagranto smokio rather than in flagranto delicto?)
I think if they so heavily tax cigarettes and alcohol that they make them unavailable, those of us lucky enough to have arable property will have to go homegrown on both! And you large city-dwellers in the midst of London will be out of luck (as say NYC or Tokyo, too) .

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

sun-star has rather innocently suggested that it was France's vengefulness after WWI that led to WWII

Speaking of which...

You didn't answer my question. You're claiming that Woodrow Wilson was motivated by a desire to reduce government power in his plans for post-war Europe?

[inked]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Speaking of which...

You didn't answer my question. You're claiming that Woodrow Wilson was motivated by a desire to reduce government power in his plans for post-war Europe?

Sorry I failed to answer that. I got all caught up in the panacea and cigarettes !

Woodrow Wilson was a boyhood hero of mine but I have not read about him recently so my (faulty) memory may be in error. What I was attempting to convey was the desire on the part of Wilson to reduce the vengeful nature of the French reparations (and other nations subjected to the Kaiser's government's aggression). I recall that he used the example of such vengeance from the post-Lincoln US government's Reconstruction policies in the conquered Confederate States after what we euphemistically refer to as the WAR of NORTHERN AGGRESSION. The effects were disastrous and led to poor economic recovery and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan with the subsequent attendant horrors. IIRC, Wilson was unable to convince the WWI allies of his points. The rest, as we know, is history!

If I am in error in this, I trust the better informed shall correct me firmly but with a touch of mercy!

[sun-star]

Ah, I see. Thank you

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As I said - our country was founded BECAUSE of government abuse (namely Britain's abuse against us)- that is why we have a mistrust of government and those in power. The thing I want to ask now - since you say "at the moment we must be fine with it" - what happens if afterward the people are not fine with it? What happens if the government starts using them for more than what they were initially intended for? Will you even recognize your freedoms and privacy being infringed upon - or will people someday look back and say "wow - look at what freedoms we have lost".

What freedoms will we have lost? I still can't see that.As I said if you have nothing to hide then CCTV cameras should be fine.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What freedoms will we have lost? I still can't see that.As I said if you have nothing to hide then CCTV cameras should be fine.

This is one of the reasons why there is such a gap between the US and Europe. Even with history - you can not accept that there is a strong possibility that the freedoms and privacy you innocently give up today without question - can lead to corruption and serious problems later on. The thing is - at that time it's usually too late to do anything about it. You guys can have you big brother cameras - we will hopefully continue to speak out against them here. Because as far as I'm concerned - it's a slippery slope you're on.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet with Big Brother the cameras in there are open for everyone to see yet the CCTV cameras aren't broadcasted acroos the TV. Only certain people can see them, not just anyone.