Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread

[afro-elf]

yeah i agree

well it WAS fun while it lasted

[afro-elf]

what happened to all those who said they would get back to finish the battle

with the exception of mathron which i feel is unresolved

he never answered ( to my POV) the non induction problems i raised

but to every one else save my allies

where art thou?

[Alethes]

I'm new here, but I have been reading this thread and wanted to make some comments.

Someone (I think afro-elf, but I'm not sure) said something to the effect of "You can't say that just because something isn't proven true/false doesn't mean that it is true".
By the same token, you can't say that it is false.
You have to take something like this on faith, no matter what you believe. BTW, in Hebrews 11:1, the Bible defines faith as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".

In another discussion, someone (again, I think afro-elf but I'm not sure) said that in some verses, God ordered the Israelites to kill someone (stone sinners for various reasons, etc.) and that this violated the "Thou shalt not kill/murder" command. I looked up "murder" in The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, and it defined murder as "the unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice". The "stone sinners" commands were in the Books of the Law, and were laws that God gave to the Israelites. Since these were laws, they could not be murder.

Hope I'm not intruding on a conversation. I just wanted to make a few points.

[crow]

Note: I have not read all messages posted in this thread, but have merely skimmed a small selection.

Also I have no quotes at this point in time. Sorry!

Furthermore, I'm just a fallible 16 year old who is interested in religion generally and took a history of world religions course last spring. If I oversimplify for the sake of brevity or out of laziness, if I misrepresent or misinterprete, if I'm just plain wrong, that's pretty much why. I'd appreciate corrections, but don't be too harsh.

Christianity is what the overeducated call an ethical monotheism. Judaism and Islam are the other two ethical monotheisms at large in the world today. "Monotheism" refers the fact that there is only one deity is central to the religion's dogma. "Ethical" pretty much means that there are a number of laws that describe how to be an ethical human being. Major oversimplification and poor wording. I suggest you don't take my word for any of this and do a bit of your own reading.

Anyway.

The holy book(s) of all three religions declare, whether explicitely or through implication (this is where I'd like to have some quotes), that their way is the right way if you want to, say go to paradise/heaven (Christianity and Islam) or have a piece in the world to come (as Jewish scholars have often put it), or simply be a good person as the deity of the religion in question defines good.

I feel I'm expressing this very poorly. My point is that it is the nature of ethical monotheisms - such as Christianity - to inspire in their followers a sense that they are right and the heathen masses are wrong and something bad will most likely happen to them. In fact, one could argue that it is the nature to all religions, even all cultures (cultures having a tendency to entwine themselves with religion), to make people feel they are automatically in the right. The whole Us and Them thing.

And now I throw my poor little post to the wolves.

[afro-elf]

nice to see some new faces

hello crow and alethes

i'll stick my head occasionally I might even begin to reply again

and no you were not intruding you're welcome to enter here anytime

ciao

[samwise of the shire]

Oh boy I've missed alot haven't I?

Ok where are we?I haven't read the posts after I stopped posting here. All I need is a fast pickup if you would like to tell me what's been happening in my absence.
And If anyone is offended by my posts please understand I am a VERY zealous Christian and when it comes to anyone saying God or the Bible is not true than I will write back in DEFENSE of my Faith because I am commanded to do such. If I offend anyone I'm sorry please tell me if I do so. Afro Elf told me to write my relegious "dogma" here and so I am.
Sam

[sepulchrave]

The worship of the living God, the maker of all worlds, is not a matter of following a list of rules and regulations, but a relationship. If we miss this fundamental point, we miss all. The rules were written so that we would all realize our utter dependance on the divine mercy, and not our own righteousness. When the mercy came amongst us, the rules were placed under it. You may have the rules if you wish, but I would rather take the mercy. My relationship with my maker is different than yours. Some of us will refuse to accept the concept that a mortal being can have a relationship with the Creator, and hopefully one day they will come to the place where they will be able to enjoy this wonderful reality. God will do the preparation and inviting. All that the servants of the divine are able to do is plant loving seeds in the soil that has already been prepared.
Some, in the face of this reality, still refuse to live in the confines of love, and will choose selfishness instead of selflessness. Some of these are also called Christians. This is a shame, but foreseen ahead of time. It is no surprise that these things take place. Human beings are as capable of being hypocrites now as they have ever been. This fact should not reflect on the nature of the one they call their master, as he wills all to gracious loving existence, but he will not impose that will on any living being, rather preferring to allow the created to choose to love their maker, and each other, as that is the only appropriate response to such a love as is offered through existence.
It is my belief that due to this facet of the character of God, if a soul decides its primary desire is the feeding of self above and beyond all other things, then that soul will recieve its hearts desire. That soul will be permitted, sorrowfully, to remain by itself, alone, forever, or perhaps until such an eternity passes that that soul will come to reach out beyond its own self imposed darkness, its own hell if you will. Perhaps an eternity with oneself becomes so tortuous that even the most reprehensible can find repentance. God will not force all of his creations to commune with him, but will desire it and bring opportunities for this communion until all hope is indeed lost and the soul no longer resembles the thing that was capable of love, but now is a twisted, perverse thing that cannot find anything to love, and desires nothing but itself. The hebrew name for hell is Gehenna, or the garbage dump, a place of perpetual burning of trash... things which have no further use.
The book which Christians read for guidance and direction has many hard sayings, and many mysteries within its pages. Aged wise men and theologians have been puzzling over many of them for centuries. Are we so arrogant as to think that we will clear these things up because we have the benefits of modern science? It will not ever be so until all is done. What about all the heathen? What about those to whom the message was never preached? What about the children who starve in poverty worldwide? What about the Canaanites? Will I discard the faith I have because of these hard things? Do I trust the God I know enough to believe that he is greathearted enough to have the fates of the heathen in his heart too? What am I doing to aid the starving? Do I care? Of what use are my theological ponderings when babies die in the cold, and justice is not done. If to my eyes the things done in the book seem horrifying, is it possible that it is not the book, but my understanding? Do I know all things? I know the character of the one that I worship, and I know He is good. Can you imagine if the maker of everything was not a loving one? Then the scoffers and mockers would really have something to complain about! As it is, He loves us with an everlasting Love, one that does not change or fade. Not everyone wishes to participate in the dance of creation, and they cannot be forced. The Lord of the Dance invites all who will, to come and join in, but the freewill of mankind is, for the moment, the crux of the issue. There will come a time when all things shall be revealed, and the script unveiled, and we will see as He always sees. Then the truth about all of us will be shown, and there will be no more doubt as to the justice at the heart of all things.
These are my own observations. I have not always seen things in this way, but as I grow older, I am beginning to understand somewhat of the faith that I have struggled with all these years. I invite sincere comments, but mockers and scoffers will not be replied to. I have not the time to waste, the days are getting short.

[HOBBIT]

Wow, this topic just popped up. I guess SGH must have moved it in from somewhere....

[Rána Eressëa]

All this religious stuff is freaking me out.

Personally...I think until you have physical proof - you have no say in it at all. Honestly. Why must everyone make a big deal out of such an agrument that will never be won? It's a waste of time. If you just say "you're wrong - go to Hell" do you think that's gonna make them actually believe you? If anything, they'll only disbelieve you more.

I'm not going to say that I or anyone else is right OR wrong - because I can't prove it. A book is a book, and unless it was written by Christ or God himself and you can prove it - you can't use it as fesible evidence. You just can't.

My motto is: "Be and let be."

Please, everyone - just be and let others be.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Umm, no Hobbit. I haven't seen this topic for ages.

[HOBBIT]

Forgive me then. For it just seemed to pop up, and you seemed to be the only mod on. My apologies. I guess i'm just going blind over here

[Sister Golden Hair]

No problem Hobbit. Frankly, I would have been happy not to have seen this topic again.

[sepulchrave]

A man I deeply respect once said:
People go to heaven because they want to.
People go to hell because they didn't want to go to heaven.

Another man i deeply respect once said:
Going to church doesn't make you a christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger.

nuff sed

[sepulchrave]

Sister Golden Hair,
It was with extreme reluctance that I posted my earlier message, not desiring to muddy the waters any further; however due to some extremely inflamatory posts, I wished (perhaps foolishly) to present a point of view that was somewhat different than the standard "if ya don't believe yer gonna fry" variety. I think we can sensibly tackle these debates, but the horrors of both extreme fundamentalism and extreme atheism do tend to rear their ugly heads in these things. For the record, I had not encountered this thread before, and was quite surprised when I saw it here today. It is not my wish to inflame things or cause offence.

[markedel]

All this Christian theological debate makes me glad I'm Jewish...it seems there aren't any other Jews to argue with me, so at least I'm safe...

[afro-elf]

To SGH and HOBBIT,

I will accept the full responsibilty for the resurrection of this thread.


Another poster was engaging in Christian apologetics on another thread. So, I asked them to post their views here and to leave the other threads clear.

[Nibs]

This basically reminds me about other things on this board... they're all just a matter of opinion, and telling someone else that they're wrong isn't going to get them on your side.

Sure, I have deeply entrenched religious beliefs, but this kind of thing needs to be discussed on a more personal level. I mean, we Mormons (yes, I'm a Mormon, if you couldn't tell just by my being in Utah) are notorious for proselyting, but I refuse to impress my opinion on others, especially through a message board. You can't force this kind of thing on someone. You need an inquiring mind.

[Arathorn]

I'm with Nibs on this one; except I'm catholic (again another implied opinion which we need not debate).

On the resurrection of this thread:
I think there was a discussion that evolved towards a religious discussion on LOTR Juxtaposition and afro-elf pointed samwise of the shire to this one and which got bumped back up.

[markedel]

Well the relgious beliefs in LOTR are pretty clear. Tolkien was catholic and didn't mind imposing his worldview on middle earth.

[Arathorn]

Although he did not force any of us to read his works, nor, I believe, was he able to convert more than half the readers to catholicism.

BTW, I've been reading this Book of Enoch which deals mostly about angels (there's so many of them). I got curious after that Prophecy movie series. Is it part of Jewish beliefs?