LOTR = Typical Action Films?

[thranduil]

Let me see if I can just name "most" of the action of the top of my head,

-Great Battle-----------------------------------Book
-Isildurs death---------------------------------Book
-Hobbits head cut off-------------------------PJ
-Farmer Maggot chasing---------------------PJ
-Riders chase them to Bucleberry Ferry---Book
-Riders crash down gate---------------------PJ
-sam and comp. start to confront strider-PJ
-Wraiths stab beds---------------------------Book
-Fight on Weather Top----------------------PJ
-Flight to Ford--------------------------------Book
-Wizard Duel----------------------------------PJ
-Birds spot Fellowship-----------------------Book
-Uruk hai being made-----------------------Book
- Caradhras-----------------------------------Book
-foul creature in the water-----------------Book
-Balins tomb----------------------------------Book
-Balrog----------------------------------------Book
-Parth Galen---------------------------------Book

Ya some scenes were changed but they were still scenes from the book. I'm guessing that PJ had about 4 minutes of action that were just his ideas. And the rest was Tolkeins work, it may be a little extended but its still in Tolkeins books. And obviously most of this action that is complained about is from the books. So if you say the films are typical action films, are you also saying that the books are typical action books, because 80 percent of the action comes from the books! Oh and ya I guess yelling at the council should be on the list as well.

[Cirdan]

The rider chase to the ferry was not in the book.

The "Great Battle" was told as a story (not true action).

The Riders do crash a gate (see Knife in the Dark)

Sam does confront Strider in the book (altho no "longshanks!)

Uruk-Hai were not "made" in the book.

The fight at Weathertop was in the book but very changed in the movie.

Many of the scenes from the book are "juiced up" as has already been noted.

Another PJ scene is the stair leap. Not exactly a plot/character development shot.

Some of the juice up scenes are fine, like the watcher in the water, which was over the top but not egregiously so.

The troll fight was OK except it was too extended and the wound to Frodo was too extreme to be believable.

The stair jump was just silly.

There is really nothing wrong with action but when it stretches the limit of one's ability to "suspend disbelief" it does detract from the movie.

Adding action to Tolkien is like putting ketchup on prime rib.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
The Riders do crash a gate (see Knife in the Dark)

They don't crash the gates of Bree when entering Bree though. And in the book they only ride down the gate keepers in Buckland.

All about Crickhollow there was the sound of hirns blowing, and voices crying and feet running. But the Black Riders rode like a gale to the North-gate...They rode down the guards at the gate and vanished from the Shire.

It wasn't the huge gate of Bree that they rode into and knocked down - let alone squashing the gate keeper like the did in Jackson's movie.

Sam does confront Strider in the book (altho no "longshanks!)

Agree - but in addition to Longshanks - Aragorn pulls out a FULLY forged sword - NOT Narsil. When I saw that - I just thought - what the hell is this? The movie just seemed to be getting worse and worse and worse.

The fight at Weathertop was in the book but very changed in the movie.

Very much changed - so much so that in the book Aragorn never leaves the Hobbits at night and also tells them to MAKE a fire. There was no fire throwing or anything either. I am still wondering where the Black Riders got new robes after they were burned on weathertop. My only thoughts - like I said in the various FotR threads - is that they had luggage racks under their horses for change of robes.

Another PJ scene is the stair leap. Not exactly a plot/character development shot.

Complete waste of screen time and Jackson always argues how he couldn't do things because of spacing. The stair scene could have been eliminated and no one would have missed it. But you know - he needed to get his "No one tosses a dwarf" thing in their - other wise the repeated dwarf tossing jokes in TT wouldn't have worked.

The troll fight was OK except it was too extended and the wound to Frodo was too extreme to be believable.

I think the troll was a waste. Khamul and I were talking about this last night too. I made mention of how Frodo's ribs would have been shattered by that spear thrust into the mithril coat. Mithril only stopped the blades - it did nothing to lessen the impact,

The stair jump was just silly.

As I said above and agree with.

There is really nothing wrong with action but when it stretches the limit of one's ability to "suspend disbelief" it does detract from the movie.

Adding action to Tolkien is like putting ketchup on prime rib.

Exactly.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by thranduil
Let me see if I can just name "most" of the action of the top of my head,

-Great Battle-----------------------------------Book
-Isildurs death---------------------------------Book
-Hobbits head cut off-------------------------PJ
-Farmer Maggot chasing---------------------PJ
-Riders chase them to Bucleberry Ferry---Book
-Riders crash down gate---------------------PJ
-sam and comp. start to confront strider-PJ
-Wraiths stab beds---------------------------Book
-Fight on Weather Top----------------------PJ
-Flight to Ford--------------------------------Book
-Wizard Duel----------------------------------PJ
-Birds spot Fellowship-----------------------Book
-Uruk hai being made-----------------------Book
- Caradhras-----------------------------------Book
-foul creature in the water-----------------Book
-Balins tomb----------------------------------Book
-Balrog----------------------------------------Book
-Parth Galen---------------------------------Book

Let's really do this right.

-Great Battle-----------------------------------Book

-Isildurs death---------------------------------Book/PJ changes
In the movie the one Ring doesn't burn Isuldur's hand (he's wearing a glove) also they only show him floating in the water - not that he wear the ring to become invisible and was shot when the Ring slipped off his finger.

-Hobbits head cut off-------------------------PJ

-Farmer Maggot chasing---------------------PJ

-Riders chase them to Bucleberry Ferry---PJ

-Riders crash down gate---------------------PJ

-sam and comp. start to confront strider-Book
In the movie - Strider/Aragorn does not pull out Narsil and there is no "All that is gold" poem.

-Wraiths stab beds---------------------------Book

-Fight on Weather Top----------------------PJ

-Flight to Ford--------------------------------PJ
You can't even say that the Flight to the Ford was in the book with the way Jackson changed it.

-Wizard Duel----------------------------------PJ

-Birds spot Fellowship-----------------------Book

-Uruk hai being made-----------------------PJ

-Caradhras-----------------------------------PJ
In the movie PJ has Saruman causing the storm.

-foul creature in the water-----------------Book

-Balins tomb----------------------------------Book/PJ changes
PJ had extended the scene more than it needed to be.

-Balrog----------------------------------------Book

-Parth Galen---------------------------------Book/PJ changes
The fight with the orcs was over done and the Urak Hai were nothing the way they are described in the books. I would also like to know where the "normal" orcs came from in the Two Towers - because they are no where in the battle in Parth Galen.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
The "Great Battle" was told as a story (not true action).

Right on, Cirdan. PJ should have had his actors TELL the audience big parts of the story!!!!! Now THAT would have been incredibly exciting, been true to Tolkien, and would have saved New Line a bunch of money on special effects.

It's truly a shame that the world will never get to see a true "purist" LOTR movie with Glorfindel, Tom Bombadil, singing, and plenty of jolly exciting stuff with characters sitting around and talking about what happened to them. Instead we'll have to suffer through another action-movie from this hack Jackson.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Agree - but in addition to Longshanks - Aragorn pulls out a FULLY forged sword - NOT Narsil. When I saw that - I just thought - what the hell is this? The movie just seemed to be getting worse and worse and worse.

Oh, if we get started on the narsil we'll be here all night. Now Arwen's going to shlep it all the way to Gondor. It alters Tolkien's view of the character only being a part of a greater event and makes it into some psychological journey fo Aragorn. No longer is her selfless but now a wallower in an emotional morass. His change bothers me more than P&M.

I am still wondering where the Black Riders got new robes after they were burned on weathertop. My only thoughts - like I said in the various FotR threads - is that they had luggage racks under their horses for change of robes.

We always make fun of this point, picturing a suitcase filled with black crepe claoks. lol And the burning wraith with the branch in his head flails his arms like a windmill. If it was that easy to defeat them then why ever worry about them? They seem to only effect Frodo with the Black Breath.

I think the troll was a waste.

It could have been done right even with the added action, since the flight down the stairs in the dark couldn't be filmed. Why exaggerate Frodo's injury? Even if ther troll just threw the spear it wouldn't be so hard to believe.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Right on, Cirdan. PJ should have had his actors TELL the audience big parts of the story!!!!! Now THAT would have been incredibly exciting, been true to Tolkien, and would have saved New Line a bunch of money on special effects.

Crdan was just pointing out how it is in the book. It is described - it's as a FLASHBACK. Which Jackson could have done while explaining the Ring's history ot Frodo or during the Council of Elrond which was a terrible scene.

It's truly a shame that the world will never get to see a true "purist" LOTR movie with Glorfindel, Tom Bombadil, singing, and plenty of jolly exciting stuff with characters sitting around and talking about what happened to them. Instead we'll have to suffer through another action-movie from this hack Jackson.

There is NO "purist" looking for a page by page Lord of the Rings movie - can you get that through your head? And yes - for the next 20 years we will have to suffer through that movie the hack jackson put together.

You obviously know nothign about Film making if you think that the way jackson made the movies was the only way to make them exciting and that it was impossible to keep true to the books.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
]PJ should have had his actors TELL the audience big parts of the story!!!!!

That doesn't seem like a very good idea to me, BB. Although it would have been more dramatic to wait for the council to reveal the ring's full history. Tolkien's slow reveal is far better than "Here's the whole story up front so your tiny brains won't get all confused along the way." I love the prologue, but the timing is poor. This would have saved time by elimiating the repeated returns to Isildur to add detail later.

It's truly a shame that the world will never get to see a true "purist" LOTR movie with Glorfindel, Tom Bombadil, singing, and plenty of jolly exciting stuff with characters sitting around and talking about what happened to them. Instead we'll have to suffer through another action-movie from this hack Jackson.

It's good to see you're finally coming around. We'll just have to try to enjoy what PJ is serving up for now. It's not quite as bad as you make it sound. Just the parts PJ added.

I hear the academy is just abuzz about the King Kong remake.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You obviously know nothign about Film making if you think that the way jackson made the movies was the only way to make them exciting and that it was impossible to keep true to the books.

I apologize. I've obviously been paying far much attention to the hundreds of film critics around the world who have praised Peter Jackson for his skill in bringing LOTR to the big screen instead of listening to you, jerseydevil.

Academy Award nominations and billions in revenues be damned if you don't have the official jerseydevil seal of approval. I stand corrected.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I apologize. I've obviously been paying far much attention to the hundreds of film critics around the world who have praised Peter Jackson for his skill in bringing LOTR to the big screen instead of listening to you, jerseydevil.

The question is - how many of those film critics read the books? There was one film critic who, on reviewing FotR, called Frodo - Lord of the Ring. The movies were average - Terminator 3 got great reviews too - as has many other action movies. It's doesn't mean the movies are GREAT movies and it doesn't mean that Lord of the Rings could have been made into a TRUE classic - unlike the movie that jackson gave us.

Academy Award nominations and billions in revenues be damned if you don't have the official jerseydevil seal of approval. I stand corrected.

It didn't deserve the nominations - nor did it end up winning. As for the millions - look at how much Terminator 3, Matrix Reolutions, Sprider-Man, Star Wars - etc had brought in. Now of those are great movies - yet they made tons of money. The amount of money a movie brings in has no bearing on whether the movie is actually good.

[hectorberlioz]

Agree - but in addition to Longshanks - Aragorn pulls out a FULLY forged sword - NOT Narsil. When I saw that - I just thought - what the hell is this? The movie just seemed to be getting worse and worse and worse.

Bakshi also showed Narsil when aragorn takes out his sword.
I think Bakshi's version is just as bad as PJ's

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Bakshi also showed Narsil when aragorn takes out his sword.
I think Bakshi's version is just as bad as PJ's

Narsil should be what is shown - the borken sword. It is Anduril that it is reforged into. Bakshi shows Narsil and except for the animation - Bakshi's version is much better than jackson's in many respects. It was far closer to the books and showed the friendship and was more Hobbitcentric. There were problems with Bakshi's one was that he ran out of money - but he was a TRUE fan of the books. If someone whith his love of the books - with Jackson's money - then there could be a TRUE Lord of the Rings movie made. And that movie would be a classic epic - not an crap hollywood action movie.

I put in my Bakshi version and double checked and Aragorn pulls out Narsil - not a fully forged sword like Jackson has.

[hectorberlioz]

Not Sam. bakshi's Sam was retarded and looked like the troll from central park.
but, you're right, despite the animation, it did stay closer to the books.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Not Sam. bakshi's Sam was retarded and looked like the troll from central park.
but, you're right, despite the animation, it did stay closer to the books.

Sam was a little too brain dead in Bakshi's version - but Pippin and Merry were really good. I didn't like the way Aragorn looked - but overall the movie was better than jackson's. The Ringwraiths were great in Bakshi's - especially the Flight to the Ford scene (although animation could have been better).

[hectorberlioz]

I was making jokes with my brothers and how Aragorn looked like a "indian cheiftain" and Sam was "troll" and we did imataions of legolas(who's voice was supplied by anthony daniels-who is none other than c-3po in the starwars films) when he looks cross-eyed and is yelling "fly! fly!"

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
I was making jokes with my brothers and how Aragorn looked like a "indian cheiftain"

I was going to say that Aragorn looked too much like an indian.

and Sam was "troll" and we did imataions of legolas(who's voice was supplied by anthony daniels-who is none other than c-3po in the starwars films) when he looks cross-eyed and is yelling "fly! fly!"

I didn't know that legolas was done by Anthony Daniels - I'll have to rewatch it now and listen to legolas.

[hectorberlioz]

I thought Gandalf was really great in it(the bakshi version).

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
I thought Gandalf was really great in it(the bakshi version).

yes - he was. Much more wise and he walked more like he was weighted down and old. Also - he didn't wimp out and act like a whipped puppy while talking to Saruman.

The Council of Elrond was much better and it also included Bilbo.

[mithrand1r]

Although I enjoyed Bakshi's version in many respects it does contain its own share of faults.
(The Tolkien Sarcasm Page does a very good job of pointing out the faults of Bakshi's film.)

In some respects, since I thought PJ&Co. version of LOTR was going to be a film adaptation of LOTR, I was puzzled about why he did not borrow what Bakshi did well.

I thought Bakshi captured Bree well.

I never thought of Aragorn as an Indian, but I see how this could happen.

Sam I agree looked goofy.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yes - he was. Much more wise and he walked more like he was weighted down and old. Also - he didn't wimp out and act like a whipped puppy while talking to Saruman.

The Council of Elrond was much better and it also included Bilbo.

It was the hair that weighed Gandalf down so much.

I think that Bakshi sticking closer to the book helped his version, since at times the animation was very poor, IMHO.