06-26-2008, 06:05 PM | #161 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Let's make sure we're keeping things friendly by remembering to be sensitive towards other people's views.
Please don't call anyone (groups or individuals) names. Also, please remember that not all pro-choice or all pro-life people agree with each other; let's avoid statements that are too generalized. Please remember it is not helpful to mention arguments you have heard outside this thread. Unless you're linking to an article where that person's opinion can be read by everyone, hearsay is just going to confuse matters. Very few boards could have a thread like this, so you should all be commended for your respectful debating. Let's just keep it friendly.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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06-26-2008, 06:26 PM | #162 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IOW, the man can avoid the results of having sex if there is a pregnancy (and many cads do); the woman has to deal with the results of having sex if there is a pregnancy.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-26-2008, 06:32 PM | #163 | |
Elf Lord
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Nice to see you posting around the debate threads again, by the way! It's been a while. Has Real Life been butting in?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-27-2008, 06:00 PM | #164 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'd like to shave off a good deal more than his legal irresponsibility ....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-27-2008, 06:06 PM | #165 |
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^ What she said.
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06-27-2008, 06:47 PM | #166 |
Elf Lord
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Well, the only thing worse than being forced to have a baby would be being forced to marry the lout who impregnated you.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-27-2008, 07:01 PM | #167 | |
Elf Lord
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Gaffer, I'm glad we agree on so much. I'll respond to what you said eventually . . . Same goes for IR . Sis, I was rather thinking that the guy should be required to marry the girl if she wants him. Sorry for leaving that last part out. Though truly, sex outside of wedlock is irresponsible behavior for both people involved, and there should be consequences for both, for the preservation of society. If there aren't any laws against it, the behavior proliferates and becomes culturally acceptable, and millions die of STDs and millions more through being aborted . . . it's pretty sick what sexual immorality has resulted in.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-27-2008 at 07:05 PM. |
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06-27-2008, 07:09 PM | #168 |
Elf Lord
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Sex inside of wedlock is still an issue in the abortion debate.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-27-2008, 07:22 PM | #169 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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06-27-2008, 07:24 PM | #170 |
Elf Lady
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*points out that there was a lot of raping of servant girls and 'keeping' mistresses going on back in the days*
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06-27-2008, 08:34 PM | #171 | |
Elf Lord
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Mari, yes, I know that servant girls getting raped did happen back then at times. I doubt that the rape rates were any worse than they are nowadays, though . In modern times, they're horrifyingly high. Gwaimir, I agree that it happens even if illegal. Especially if it's culturally acceptable while technically illegal. It's much less common if it's both illegal and culturally unacceptable, though it still happens. Conservative Muslim countries like Oman sometimes have extremely low STD rates because sexual immorality is both illegal and culturally unacceptable. Not because contraceptives are readily available.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-27-2008 at 08:36 PM. |
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06-27-2008, 08:54 PM | #172 |
Elf Lord
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Humm. I see the conclusion, just not the evidence. On a per capita basis, I haven't seen any recent numbers.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-27-2008, 09:44 PM | #173 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-27-2008, 10:06 PM | #174 |
Elf Lord
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I wasn't clear enough in wording my question. My question would be more like "Unmarried women are x% of the reproductive age population. Married women are y%. Are women who obtained legal abortions disproportionally unmarried?"
But you must be cheered to see the abortion rate declining...even though I haven't noticed the general immorality rate has.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-27-2008, 11:54 PM | #175 |
Elf Lord
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And, speaking of the general immorality rate.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/411212 I'd bet a lot of these women would have something to say about choices...if they could. If your choice is between being murdered and having an abortion, well, that's a tough place to be in.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-28-2008, 06:53 AM | #176 |
Elf Lady
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Sis, your article won't work. Can you perhaps copy the text?
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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06-28-2008, 08:46 AM | #177 |
Elf Lord
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Homicide a Leading Cause of Death in Pregnant Women
New York (MedscapeWire) Feb 20 — The leading cause of death among pregnant women is homicide, according to a study published in the current issue of the Journal of Midwifery and Women's Health. The study's authors reviewed 651 autopsy charts from the District of Columbia's Chief Medical Examiner's Office for cases from 1988 until 1996. The researchers discovered 13 homicides of pregnant women that had not been reported with the 21 maternal deaths from medical causes (eg, hemorrhage and infection). These 13 unreported deaths account for 38% of pregnancy-associated deaths. "Few studies have evaluated the prevalence of homicide in women of childbearing age," explains the study's lead author and researcher, Cara Krulewitch, CNM, PhD, of the University of Maryland, Baltimore. "We need to turn our attention to these women and develop a clearer understanding of the magnitude of the problem, especially among pregnant women." Other findings include: Pregnant homicide victims are more likely to have been killed earlyin the pregnancy, which can make it difficult to identify thepregnancy and link it with the homicide. Pregnant homicide victims are more likely to be killed with a gun. Pregnant teenagers (aged 15-19 years) were more at risk. Similar results have been found in other areas of the country. In addition to the inability to easily collect data on homicide as a cause of maternal mortality due to cause of death coding standards, Federal Bureau of Investigation statistics do not note if a woman was pregnant at the time of the homicide. This study highlights these shortcomings in identifying and reporting maternal mortality across the nation, which allows this epidemic of violent death to escape scrutiny. "What pregnant women do not know," said American College of Nurse-Midwives Executive Director Deanne Williams, "is that instead of facing joyful celebration at the announcement of pregnancy, too many face violence and death. We have got to do a better job of identifying this problem and helping the women and their partners not end up with such a horrific outcome." The authors note that the deaths in the study, although not officially reported within maternal mortality ratios, may truly be pregnancy-related in that the violence might not have escalated to result in death had the women not become pregnant.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-28-2008, 08:58 AM | #178 |
Elf Lady
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Thank you Sis!
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
06-28-2008, 03:26 PM | #179 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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Gaffer, I'm just going to skip by all the parts of your post that I agree with, focusing on the few parts where we seem to differ.
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I look forward to the rest of your post, and your response to this one. Quote:
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I agree that adolescents are more developed than zygotes, obviously. So are fetuses more developed than zygotes, and 1-year old infants more developed than fetuses, and 8-year old children more developed than infants, and 15 year-old adolescents more than 8-year olds. Any point in the development process is simply a fluid part of the development process. Conception and late adolescence are the beginning and ending points of the development process, so they are the only points for person-now that we could pick that would not be not arbitrary. The fact that a zygote and an adolescent aren't the same does not mean they don't have equal right to live. Same could be said for a zygote and a fetus and a fetus and an infant and so on. Out of curiosity, do you think that a 2-year old baby, based on its psychological development state, should have less right to live than an adolescent? Quote:
Restrictions preventing children from being allowed to endure the death penalty because of their biological development is likewise an attempt to be kind to them in view of their condition, to make allowances for them, to be better to them. Those laws are intended to benefit them, not to destroy them. That's the key difference between all the other valid laws I know of, which relate to biological development, and the abortion law. Voting, driving, drinking and joining the army restrictions all exist for the benefit of the child too. As well as for the benefit of the rest of society. They're mutually beneficial, intended to help and to protect, not to destroy. Quote:
It's all part of the development process. Any part on the development process is arbitrary, as our Western countries are finding out. The Netherlands, as I pointed out earlier, have already legalized killing mentally handicapped infants. It's a slippery slope that our countries are slithering along. Another legitimate reason for not aborting the zygote is the human inability to discern on its own judgment when exactly a person comes to exist. Or if there is such a starting point. D. Sullivan mentioned this point earlier. The two-celled zygote could be a person for all you know. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-28-2008, 03:34 PM | #180 | |
Elf Lord
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I've heard arguments going both ways about it. I've heard pro-life people say that abstinence-only programs have caused the decline in abortion rates, and I've heard pro-choice people say sex ed. has caused it. I don't know enough about the specifics to judge the merits of either argument.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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