Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Ba-doh.

[edited]

I hope you didn't write too much before you realized the mistake!

[Tessar]

Naaaaw. If I had I would've just gone in and edited the person's post to make it look like they made a mistake and gave me a reason to correct them .

[Old toby's wicked weed]

why post mine changed be?

Nothing bad written be!!!

Please me explain mr tessar, please?

[BeardofPants]

Apparently, referring to male anatomy is unclean.

[Old toby's wicked weed]

I not remember such thing?

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, if I found myself writing about hitler's bollocks, I'd have amnesia as well.

[Old toby's wicked weed]

dat's der bunny.

not me remember what it was Mr tessar wiped away with his moderiting.

That a song be. You whistle it.

How be wrong writing this??

[BeardofPants]

Edited by Tessar

Anna, my dear, I don't even NEED to justify editing you. You know I love you, darling, and we edit the ones we love .

But no, -really- people, lets be a little cleaner.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I point you to the studies on Gengis Khan, apparently almost 9 in 10 asian men are descendants of, or descended from relatives of him.

How long did his reign last? No longer than Stalins.

Why did you think I was talking about societies? I'm talking about GENETIC SELECTION.

If Hitler hadn't been psychoticly self loathing, there would have been a slew of descendants. As it is, he was intent on engineering the "master race" of blonde haired, blue eyed not-Hitlers.

Stalin, on the other hand... well, you'll just have to imagine the liberties the chairman took...

I'll state it again plainly so you won't miss it: Short Term Benefits yield Long Term EVOLUTIONARY gains.

And I'll quote myself: "In other words, because of the conflict between the human survival instincts of altruism and competition, there will always be those who choose short term benefits, because short term benefits translate into LONG term benefits when you look at genetic selection"

You should be able to derive this just from looking at "normal" human behavior and thinking about it for a bit.

Not that high a percentage for Genghis Khan- only 8%, or roughly 16 million descendants- still not bad!! And actually it would be Ghengis Khan's grandfather, as the Great Khan was pretty generous in passing out the captured women to his brothers and cousins.

But that only applies to societies where harems are acceptable- how many Jews are descended from Solomon, given his 700 wives and 300 concubines?- pretty near all of them, I would imagine.

After all, Napoleon had only three children that we know of- he may have spawned a few on the side, but Genghis style fecundity requires a polygamous society.

Stalin was supposedly a bit of a ladies' man, especially after the suicide of his second wife, but again- no huge number of children.

Conquest as a way of spreading your genes has dropped off a lot with the passing of the acceptability of rape and enslavement of the enemy- though still popular in parts of Africa, and was apparently carried out by the Christians against the Muslims in the Bosnian War.

[GreyMouser]

My two cents on Hitler and Christianity:

Hitler believed in God or Providence, but didn't accept the tenets of the Christian faith. His outlook was modern and 'scientific', based on his twisted racial interpretations of evolution and the 'Survival of the Fittest'.

As a penniless youth in Vienna, he was impressed by the Christian Social party, a right-wing anti-Semitic Catholic party, and the way it used religion to its advantage. Later, as a political leader he stressed the folly of opposing the Church while trying to obtain power in a Christian country; besides, any overtly anti-religious doctrine would be associated with Marxism.

However, once in power he set about bending the Churches to his will.
He believed ( like Lenin) that with the control of the young in the hands of the State, the Churches would wither and die. He had nothing but contempt for the universalist ideals of Christianity, or its exalting of humility or the Hereafter.

If he'd remained in power he certainly would have continued to do what he could to subordinate Christianity to the State, and to eventually eradicate it altogether.

This is based on general reading over the years, going back to college term papers on Fascist ideology. Most recently, I'd highly recommend "The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia" by Richard Overy, Professor of History at King's College.

Also, from the Nuremberg Project:
http://www-camlaw.rutgers.edu/public...g/nurinst1.htm

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I'm sure it's only a matter of time. If you say no, that couldn't possibly happen, because athiests have this special understanding of the sanctity and fragility of life, you are deluding yourself. Badly.

If it hasn't happened YET (which is debatable, you should go back and look more closely at some of the greek city states, and the french revolution) it's just a matter of time before some promising young athiest gets on the soap box and says:

"There is no god! Religion is evil, a system perpetrated by clever hucksters and con men to benefit themselves. The followers of those outmoded, ridiculous doctrines are the bane of mankind's existence. Since they will never willingly give up their optiate, they must be destroyed, before they doom the rest of us... Let the UN-holy war commence."

If you think this will never happen, you don't understand human politics.

Pretty well what happened with Communism- also check out Mexico's anti-clericalism, as portrayed in Graham Greene's "The Power and the Glory"

[Spock]

und morgen die Welt

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

My two cents on Hitler and Christianity:

Your two cents fit in very well with the evidence I was presenting on posts 84-86. I'm happy about that . I'm glad someone's two cents fit with that evidence .

Speaking of which, would those who still think Hitler was a Christian please respond to those posts of mine, and post 114? I'm still semi-patiently waiting .

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Edited by Tessar

Anna, my dear, I don't even NEED to justify editing you. You know I love you, darling, and we edit the ones we love .

But no, -really- people, lets be a little cleaner.

Geezus santa in a bikini - did you just edit out a nursery rhyme? Oh well, into the sig it goes, and might I remind you that Shrek was PG-13 and had all manner of innuendo you phreakin' kitty cat.

Edited By Tessar:

I'm impressed--only one word I had to edit this time! *huggles BoP* I'm so proud of you!!!!!111oneone!

[Radagast The Brown]

Btw, Lief, you wanted a quote from Hitler in which he says his goal is to eradicate the Jews:

Originally Posted by Hitler, January 30 1939

...if the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevizing of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

[Lief Erikson]

In that statement, he doesn't make clear that he would order the eradication of the Jews. While from our current standpoint, we might easily jump to that conclusion, people wouldn't just assume that that was what he meant upon hearing this for the first time. Hitler said here that the destruction of the Jewish people would be a natural outcome of war. He didn't say he would do his best to bring that destruction about. That statement could easily have been considered a warning to the Jews, rather than a threat against them.

[Lief Erikson]

Here's the full quotation:

Originally Posted by Hitler

"In the course of my life I have very often been a prophet, and have usually been ridiculed for it. During the time of my struggle for power it was in the first instance only the Jewish race that received my prophecies with laughter when I said that I would one day take over the leadership of the State, and with it that of the whole nation, and that I would then among other things settle the Jewish problem. Their laughter was uproarious, but I think that for some time now they have been laughing on the other side of their face. Today I will once more be a prophet: if the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevizing of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

"Today I will once more be a prophet," does not sound as though he's saying that this will now be national policy for Germany.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

In that statement, he doesn't make clear that he would order the eradication of the Jews. While from our current standpoint, we might easily jump to that conclusion, people wouldn't just assume that that was what he meant upon hearing this for the first time. Hitler said that the destruction of the Jewish people would be a natural outcome of war. He didn't say he would do his best to bring that destruction about.

But after you know this and you see how all the jews "disappear"... erm, don't you think the average person would conclude something is going on...? To be more specific, "the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe"? IMO, one had to deliberately ignore the evidence in order not to realize that the Jews are being murdered.

But I suppose you aren't going to agree, so let's just stop... it's getting no where.

By the way, I don't think Hitler was Christian.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But after you know this and you see how all the jews "disappear"... erm, don't you think the average person would conclude something is going on...?

One thing is that not everyone felt that the Jews were disappearing. The scale of the disappearances, as BoP pointed out, was also not known.

Sometimes the Germans announced destinations. They made concentration camps sound as though they were going to be beautiful hotels and good living conditions to the Jews they were taking to them, sometimes (I haven't done the investigation to find out how frequently this deception was used).

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

To be more specific, "the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe"? IMO, one had to deliberately ignore the evidence in order not to realize that the Jews are being murdered.

As I quoted from the actual speech, it wasn't clear that this is what Hitler was saying. Especially not since he said he was merely being a prophet, and nowhere suggested that he was laying out Germany's national policy.

But I can well believe the German people were capable of ignoring evidence against Hitler at this time. They were enraptured with him, because he restored to them dignity, pride and an economy. He eradicated their despair, and this could easily blind people to the downsides of their hero.

[GreyMouser]

The official line on the Jews was that they were being sent to work camps in the East. I would guess that most people thought that a lot of them were dying from mistreatment, and didn't really care, but did not actually know about the whole extermination camp programme.

If you get the chance, watch "Conspiracy", an HBO special with Kenneth Branagh. It's a chilling dramatisation of the Wannsee Conference, where 'The Final Solution' was organized.