Discrimination

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Sorry, BJ,

It's the old Lord, liar, or lunatic problem.

Jesus claims to be God, that eternity is dependent upon one's response to His claims, and that His activity is the Source of All-that-is.

It's not the ideas, Dude, it's the Person of Jesus, Yeshua bar Yosef, Incarnate Creator, Redeemer, and Savior of humanity.

Now, will you be taking the poached egg dude or the liar dude or the God of the Universe dude?

so the man is more important than the message in your opinion... or so deeply intwined that they can not be separated?

[inked]

BJ,

If you have looked seriously at the claims of Jesus of Nazareth, you would see that the man is the message. I suggest the Gospel of John, read straight through in a modern translation. The equation of YHWH and Jesus is made by Jesus and clearly understood by the rulers of Israel. It was that for which He was crucified under the cover of political insurrection.

Of course, that whole resurrection thing really boggles the reality we are accustomed to, doesn't it?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

BJ,

If you have looked seriously at the claims of Jesus of Nazareth, you would see that the man is the message. I suggest the Gospel of John, read straight through in a modern translation. The equation of YHWH and Jesus is made by Jesus and clearly understood by the rulers of Israel. It was that for which He was crucified under the cover of political insurrection.

Of course, that whole resurrection thing really boggles the reality we are accustomed to, doesn't it?

the man is the message from a christian's viewpoint (and i probably should add "some christians", since not all christians believe in the literal translation of the bible)

from the viewpoint of many jews, for example, his message was still very important, but he was just seen as a prophet, not the son of god... thus the man and the message is not so intwined

from the pov of a hindu, he might be seen as purely a gifted philosopher... but this does not necessarily lessen the message

what i am saying is that while you might believe in your heart of hearts that the man and the message is intwined... if you want the message (the important part) to reach a wider audience, you should really focus on the words and not the person who delivered them

if you can not separate the two, then the only person you are doing a disservice to is yourself... and you should expect reprimand in situations that call for you to address a wider audience than a purely christian one

[Spock]

...hmmmm, focusing on the words and not the person of bj.... ohmmmmmm

Christians focus on the man and His word as Jesus is considered the Son of God, while Jews thought him a prophet, possibly Issaih come back, Hindus didn't think about him because CNN wasn't invented yet.

[inked]

BJ,

It is precisely the words that I encourage you to focus on. Jesus said,

John 1: 47-51 preternatural knowledge of Nathaniel and the acceptance of the title Son of God, the King of Israel; prediction of the opening of heaven and the ministry of angels

John 2: 16 "make not My Father's house a house of merchandise" on driving the merely commercial from the Temple - a clear assertion of equality with God

John 3:16 "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand."

John 4:25-26 (the woman at the well says Messiah will tell all things). Jesus saith unto her, "I that speak unto thee am He."

I could cite multitudinous more passages but these clearly demonstrate the claims that Jesus made for Himself. From His viewpoint, HE was God and the source of being and salvation. These are the words He spoke. Those are the claims HE made, that the disciples made along with Him, and that the Church has always made for Him.

The claims are His. The person coming to Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, regardless of aberrant doctrine claiming to be "christian", status as an Hindu,
philosopher, or Jew, or aborigine (etc) must face those claims. That was His message.

However, I do concur that the person who fails to understand the words of Jesus is doing a disservice: to themselves. Jesus was the message. Words were the medium, but not the only medium of the expression. His entire life, the Passion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His rule from the Trinity are the message. But to limit it to word, you must take into account the assertion that JESUS is in fact the Word, the logos, coexistent with God, with no beginning or end, without Whom nothing that is came to be! (John 1:1).

To do otherwise is to discriminate on the grounds of your selectivity and willingness to accept His words.

Word, Man!

[Spock]

More simply, if you believe The Word, you acknowledge all the rest.

[brownjenkins]

i think you are missing the point by a country mile

the job of a military is to help console and give inspiration to the troops... all the troops

the military is not saying that there is anything wrong with speaking in terms of jesus and christianity on an one-on-one basis, or even during a christian mass:

The Navy allows chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, Allah or any other deity during chapel services, spokeswoman Lt. Erin Bailey said.

all they are asking is for them to take the broader view of "god", which is shared by a lot more religions the "jesus" is during public "sermons" where the audience is of many faiths:

At other public events, "Navy chaplains are encouraged to be sensitive to the needs of all those present," she said, "and may decline an invitation to pray if not able to do so for conscience reasons."

while there are specific parts of the bible that tie jesus to his message (as you pointed out), there are many parts of jesus' "philosophy" that are shared by other religions, predate christianity, and even predate monotheistic religion

all they are asking is for the chaplin to have the respect to focus on the universal parts of the philosophy, instead of the controversial parts

both these quotes below have powerful meaning in and of themselves... who said them does not have to be a part of the picture to get the ideas across... and, not knowing the speaker, might even lead some to take them more to heart than they would if they did know the speaker:

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Teach this triple truth to all: A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things which renew humanity.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

the job of a military is to help console and give inspiration to the troops... all the troops

The job of the military is to kill people and break things!

Politics has made them into "meals on wheels" .

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i think you are missing the point by a country mile

the job of a military is to help console and give inspiration to the troops... all the troops

the military is not saying that there is anything wrong with speaking in terms of jesus and christianity on an one-on-one basis, or even during a christian mass:



all they are asking is for them to take the broader view of "god", which is shared by a lot more religions the "jesus" is during public "sermons" where the audience is of many faiths:



while there are specific parts of the bible that tie jesus to his message (as you pointed out), there are many parts of jesus' "philosophy" that are shared by other religions, predate christianity, and even predate monotheistic religion

all they are asking is for the chaplin to have the respect to focus on the universal parts of the philosophy, instead of the controversial parts

both these quotes below have powerful meaning in and of themselves... who said them does not have to be a part of the picture to get the ideas across... and, not knowing the speaker, might even lead some to take them more to heart than they would if they did know the speaker:

BJ, as usual, you are missing the point by a country!

No one is claiming that Jesus never taught the Tao. He did. He in fact was its origin and fulfillment. That wise men have seen the light acknowledges the existence of the light. A point I have been at some pains to make for two years and you to avoid.

The issue here is that Jesus made exclusive claims about His person that will not allow one to merely class Him as a great teacher. Great teachers do not claim Godhood (that is, I believe, your point), but Jesus did. He did not mean to leave us the option to bypass Him by that route. "I and the Father are One" in the context of the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, YHWH our God is One YHWH" can only mean a claim to be YHWH.

See John 5, noting in particular verses 17 and 18:
17 - But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
18 - Therefore the Jew(ish leaders) sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If, as is reality, Jesus is God, then His Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection and Ascension are the critical nodes of history. Other philosophical statements about some perceived "god" are to thirst as H2O is to a glass of water. One is merely conceptional, the other is glorious reality.

[Spock]

Don't let the Chinese here that. Lao Tsu and company are big with the Tao.

[inked]

But it was rather missed by Mao, wasn't it?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

The job of the military is to kill people and break things!

i think faster than i type... i meant to say "the job of a military chaplin is to help console and give inspiration to the troops... all the troops"

and to inked... i understand what christians believe... but the job of a chaplin is to appeal to all, not just christians... here's a letter from the head of army chaplins:

From the Chief
Chaplain (MG) David H. Hicks, Chief of Chaplains

Worship is at the heart of the service we offer the Army as unit ministry teams. The eternal, personal and community aspects of worship expand our perspective so we can see beyond ourselves. Worship is our human action in honor of God to draw us consciously to Him. Yet, one of the mysteries of worship is that it also causes us to look within seeking greater clarity. The words of the prophet continue to ring true: "For this is what the high and lofty One says — who lives forever, whose name is holy: 'I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit. (Isaiah 57:15)'"

As you read through this issue devoted to the theme of worship, I believe you will be struck, as I was, by the invigorating religious diversity of the Army Chaplaincy. Looking beyond ourselves as individuals, it is evident that our diversity is one strand of our strength as we stand for the free exercise of religion for all, as guaranteed by our Constitution.

As we look within our Corps, it is also evident there is an incredible unity. Seeing each other through the eyes of worship, we realize that we are unified in our desire to bring soldiers to God and God to soldiers. We are united in our passion to serve as representatives of the highest and best in a world that too often emphasizes that which is lowest and least. We are united, too, in our resolve to be people of spirituality, integrity and community. We are bound together by mutual respect for traditions different than our own and even defend them. We teach to overcome misconceptions and prejudices about traditions that differ from our own. We model and mentor with collegiality and professionalism. Many chaplains mention the richness and insight they gain from interaction with others who do not come from within their particular tradition. I pray that will be your experience as well.

Throughout my career, I have enjoyed receiving my personal copy of The Army Chaplaincy. It is our professional bulletin and serves the vital interests of our Corps. This edition is no exception. In issue after issue, it is evident that Nella Hobson, the managing editor, works hard to organize quality material designed to enhance our professional and personal growth. Our gratitude to her as a Corps cannot be overestimated.

Janice and I continue to be strengthened by your prayers and support. It is one of life’s highest privileges to serve God and Country with you.

Pro Deo et Patria — For God and Country!

it's about acceptance and respect for differences... the very opposite of discrimination

[Spock]

However, the services have Chaplains in denominations.....just look at old M.A.S.H. episodes and you'll see that. There isn't an "all faiths" Chaplain.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

However, the services have Chaplains in denominations.....just look at old M.A.S.H. episodes and you'll see that. There isn't an "all faiths" Chaplain.

as i quoted earlier:

The Navy allows chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, Allah or any other deity during chapel services, spokeswoman Lt. Erin Bailey said.

At other public events, "Navy chaplains are encouraged to be sensitive to the needs of all those present," she said, "and may decline an invitation to pray if not able to do so for conscience reasons."

[Spock]

Again, "allows" doesn't cut it with Muslims. They still believe an infidel even if he/she wears the cloth. I've been there and know from experience.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

Again, "allows" doesn't cut it with Muslims. They still believe an infidel even if he/she wears the cloth. I've been there and know from experience.

you've been in the US armed forces alongside american troops that happen to follow the muslim faith?

[Spock]

Yes.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

Yes.

i can certainly appreciate the fact that many would not accept a chaplin who does not share their faith... but if one was to attempt to bring them in, it would seem to me that addressing god, and more importantly, the ideas, in a more general sense would be more promising than just choosing one faith system (in public addresses at least)

i don't think it's as easy situation... and in some cases i am sure people will never lose their prejudices, but this does not mean that we should not try

[inked]

Of interest, perhaps....

http://www.anglicanplanet.net/TAPIntern0602f.html

and this little number about the POPE and ISLAM

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatc...ves/009886.php

[Insidious Rex]

So the pope thinks Islam is a crappy religion too eh? These kinds of petty pot shots always remind me of politicians slinging mud at each other during a campaign. What they never seem to see is how it makes politics (and religion...) in general look to those outside their particular mind set. Pathetic, petty, short sighted and hypocritical.