05-03-2003, 03:49 PM | #161 | |
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"God will forgive me. It is his job."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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05-03-2003, 04:18 PM | #162 | |
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Re: "God will forgive me. It is his job."
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I can't say I've ever heard of him not repenting. On the other hand I've never heard that he did, either, but I think that after some time in Mandos he would repent. He was "marred by the evil within him" indeed, but I believe I've read somewhere that all marring could be healed in Mandos...
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 04:27 PM. |
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05-03-2003, 04:27 PM | #163 | |
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"No one will forgive me, but myself."
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Is this enough? |
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05-03-2003, 04:30 PM | #164 | |
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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05-03-2003, 04:38 PM | #165 | |
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If the world had that attitude in WWII, there would be no more Jews in the world, mentally handicapped people would be killed at the first sign of their 'imperfections', homosexuals would be killed if they were ever found out, and the world would be a living hell! You may thank whatever god or gods you believe in that the world did not take a Christian view of Hilter. (ooops, politics and religion... two subjects to stay plenty clear of. Sorry!) |
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05-03-2003, 04:50 PM | #166 | |
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Re: "God will forgive me. It is his job."
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05-03-2003, 04:50 PM | #167 | |
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But Tolkien was a christian, and probably lived (and wrote, as you can see in his works) after those lines. That's actually an argument for Fëanor He attacked and hated his enemy, who was planning to make the world a living hell. If he hadn't done what he did (even if it wasn't in his intention) there would be no more C*rdan. I think the difference here is that Tolkien's philosofy was not attack when you don't have to. Frodo didn't have to attack Gollum, and he didn't.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 04:57 PM. |
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05-03-2003, 05:03 PM | #168 | |
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(2) I know JRRT was a Christian (actually, a Catholic) and I know that he wrote (especially in his later years) with the same Christian values and morality that he was raised on. I was trying to define 'evil' from a humanistic perspective, not Christian perspective. (3) And that should be everyone's philosophy. Do not turn a blind eye to the injustices and evils of the world, but stand and defend those that need to be defended, your brothers and sisters in humanity. But Fëanor's reasons were not so noble. In fact they were quite the opposite. He reasons were for his own personal gain and for his own pride and for revenge for evils against himself only. He was not coming to the rescue of those that suffered in ME before he came to it. His heart and mind were bent upon only one thing: get the Silmarils from Melkor. That is not a noble cause. |
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05-03-2003, 05:19 PM | #169 | |||
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Re: "God will forgive me. It is his job."
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From Ósanwe-kenta Quote:
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It is interesting that the people who really dislike Fëanor, are the ones who would treat him the same way that he treated Morgoth. Fight fire with fire then.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-03-2003, 07:00 PM | #170 |
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Actually, we are hating a purely literary creation in a literary way. We did not kill or cause to be killed our kinsmen, rebel against our God because of a few bits of Elvish glass, and desert our followers to hardship and death. We are free to react to Feanor with hatred, or dislike, if the word is better, because we are not in JRRT's cosmos. We are in what we call the real world, and to me, at least, the actions of Feanor were wrong, despicible, and to be roundly condemned, especially since he never repented.
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05-03-2003, 07:04 PM | #171 | |
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 07:54 PM. |
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05-03-2003, 07:42 PM | #172 |
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Wow, lots of complex topics here... this might take a few posts to finish...
re the "love your enemies" quote - it goes on to say "and pray for those that persecute you." There's several ideas behind this, IMHO (as a long-time Christian) - I'll have to extremely over-simplify, but... (1) The main idea behind this, IMO, is - it's never right to hate a person, but just the wrong things they do. Praying for your enemies is a way to love them, which is always right. I think righteous anger is perfectly justified - cf. Jesus chasing the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip of cords, because their actions distorted what the temple represented. Cf. also an interesting verse in the Bible that says "Be angry, and yet do not sin...." (Ephesians 4:26). So anger in itself is not wrong, it's what you're angry about (e.g., "she's prettier than I am" would be wrong; "that guy just hit that little kid" would be appropriate), AND what you DO as a result of the anger (e.g., helping the little kid out would be right). I never 'hated' the character of Fëanor; as I've said before, the main emotion I have when I think about him is sorrow. But I am properly angry with the terrible things he did. And his bad ACTIONS seem to come out of his bad ATTITUDES, which is usually the order of things. (2) re the practical aspect of loving your enemies - I've found that a person that you hate/are angry with/can't forgive, has power over you - you are constantly fuming over them, etc. Now, praying for them and loving them (I'm not talking about mushy, loving feelings here, but the concrete acts of love, such as kindness, prayer, etc.) breaks that power. I've been really mad at a few 'Mooters here on occasion, and when I stop and pray for God to bless them and help them in whatever difficult circumstances they're in, it just seems to break the anger cycle. And if I'm mad at someone near me (as opposed to on the Internet), then I can do more concrete acts of kindness (if I'm mad at my husband, I can choose to make a special effort to make his favorite dinner that night as an act of love, for example). The goal of loving your enemies is to bring good to them, which is always right. Also -- I've always liked Finarfin's reaction to Fëanor - it says in the Shibboleth that Finarfin chose how to speak (thorn/not thorn sound) based on what he, himself, thought was RIGHT - NOT based on being on Fëanor's side, or showing up Fëanor, etc. I think that's the right way to choose. Also, Finarfin chose to leave Valinor for love of his people, which is also a good motive. Fëanor seemed to choose to leave Valinor for love of the Silmarils. The anger that Fëanor felt due to their being stolen was right and appropriate, IMO (he was indeed the victim of a terrible crime), but the actions he chose based on that anger were wrong. Also #2 -- BTW, "then they humiliate you and crucify you quite publicly" - the crucifixion of Jesus was a CHOICE made by him, to bring about a way of reconciliation to God - it is quite clearly stated that he could at any time have called legions of angels to his aid; also, when he chose, his mere words would knock people to the ground (as right before He was betrayed) - it is clear He CHOSE to let this happen. Christians are NOT to be doormats, but powerful agents for GOOD. "Turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemies" is NEVER to be a doormat type of thing, IMO, but a choice made when it will bring good to another person, even at your expense. And also it seems to be only referring to a PERSONAL wrong - you don't "turn the other cheek" for someone doing wrong to someone else. Hope this wasn't too OT, but I thought it was applicable to the discussion.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-03-2003 at 07:52 PM. |
05-03-2003, 08:01 PM | #173 |
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Another point, I think, is that Fëanor never forced his people (or could have done so) to go with him.
True, he had a very powerful voice, but many of the Elves (among them Finarfin) were not swayed by his words. Thus, I think they had a lust for going to M-E already before Fëanor showed up, and his words persuaded them. However, the Kinslaying was a completely free-will thing, though his words were "still burning hot within them". The Elves of Fëanors host could have turned and walked away, but they didn't.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 08:04 PM. |
05-03-2003, 08:01 PM | #174 | |
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ps - Maedhros, I love that quote from Ósanwe-kenta:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-03-2003, 08:13 PM | #175 | |
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I'd probably give a little more credit to Fëanor's words than you would, though, in getting them on the road, because he was so nervous about the Noldor "cooling down" and changing their minds, but that 's just a difference of opinion about a matter of degree of influence. I think Finarfin was pretty exceptional in not being influenced by Fëanor, though.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-03-2003 at 08:15 PM. |
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05-03-2003, 09:17 PM | #176 | |
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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05-03-2003, 09:22 PM | #177 | |
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Artanis just gave a quote from The Prophecy of Mandos:
Quote:
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05-03-2003, 11:44 PM | #178 |
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Falagar - as you, I am not sure how much to trust it. I would dearly love for it to be true, but, ???
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 01:15 AM | #179 |
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Wow...that's a beautiful passage to envision...
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05-04-2003, 02:40 AM | #180 | |
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