01-18-2007, 08:35 PM | #161 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-18-2007, 08:53 PM | #162 | ||
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 01-18-2007 at 09:14 PM. |
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01-18-2007, 09:40 PM | #163 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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That was a general question to the entire group ("Should we start a new thread?"), because IRex's comment made me interested about the usage of the word. Words are very interesting to me.
And I'm not "keen on pushing [my]defense of Lief's usage of Negroes to describe black people." Nor am I interested in eating my son with ketchup! (now mustard, OTOH ... ) It seems that you just don't ever understand me. I'm just interested in how the use of the word, the feelings aroused by the word, etc. have evolved over time.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-18-2007 at 09:42 PM. |
01-18-2007, 10:10 PM | #164 | |
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The shape of words doesn't matter; it's what's meant by them. Someone can use "African American" in such a way that it is loaded of negative connotations, and someone can use "Negro" in a way which is utterly devoid of such connotations, though it is certainly associated as a whole with racism. Just like if I said, "Catholic", it would be meant in a good way, and if, say, your average Seventh-day Adventist said it, it would be meant in a bad way, and similarly, if I say "Papist", which I do, I mean it in a good way, but if said SDA said it, it would probably be meant in a bad way. Most Americans will call Latter-Day Saints "Mormons", without meaning any harm by it, or a member of the Society of Friends a "Quaker", again without meaning any harm by it, even though those are not the best words for them, and in the former case at least is a word which is specifically avoided by the Establishment.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 01-18-2007 at 10:14 PM. |
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01-19-2007, 01:26 AM | #165 | |
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But Gwai, you were right on the money about the seventh-Day Adventist thing & Catholics, though; I was raised in that horrible cult-church for a few years of my childhood and can heartily attest to the truth of that statement. They think Catholics are like agents of satan, or something, and that they worship idols, have the mark of the beast, all that crazy tripe. I hate the seventh-day adventist church. Hate. That. Church. Such emotionally and spiritually destructive human beings, it is so, so sad. And I was baptised catholic, so I got some flak for that fact wen I was a wee girl, lemme tell you. They claimed I was possessed by demons. Hate those people. No excuse for such deliberate ignorance. We are so, so off topic on gay marriage at this point, aren't we? O.K., I'll quit giving Lief a hard time for his Negroes thing, what the hell. Back to the topic at hand... Carry on, folks...
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01-19-2007, 06:58 AM | #166 |
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Words are very interesting in that they have meaning in two different places at the same time: in the intention of the speaker and in the mind of the listener. One of the key social skills of being a functional human is being aware that these two meanings may be very different...
Anyway, back on topic, Civil Partnerships have been massively popular since they were introduced here about a year ago: http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/...964055,00.html Over 15,000 ceremonies. Compares with approx. 270k straight marriages (in 2003). I don't see the fabric of society crumbling around me. (Or at least, no more than is usual.) So, for our friends contemplating the "defining marriage.." issue Stateside, is there any interest in what the experience is in other countries? Are people studying what is going on there to see what happens? |
01-19-2007, 03:22 PM | #167 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Remember what marriage is. It's not a sexual covenant between two people. It's a covenant of love. In fact, there are cases of men and women who are married to one another yet simply can't have sexual relations due to some physical impairment (i.e. quadriplegics). And there are other marriages where, due to age or other factors, sex is a very small part of that relationship, and certainly not a deciding factor. By insisting that marriage must be between a man and a woman just because of biology, and at the same time condoning heterosexual marriages that fall far short on the love side of the equation, it is you who are making marriage less than what it is. Dedicating your life to another person has absolutely nothing to do with sex.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-19-2007, 03:38 PM | #168 | ||
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How you view the world has everything to do with your time and place, just as how I view the world has everything to do with mine. Everything is relative. It's just that some things are more widely-agreed upon at a given place and time. Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-19-2007, 04:07 PM | #169 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-19-2007 at 04:28 PM. |
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01-19-2007, 04:48 PM | #170 | |
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I don't know about all Catholics, but Gwai is DEFINITELY the agent of satan
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01-19-2007, 10:25 PM | #171 | |
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01-20-2007, 02:38 AM | #172 | |
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(good one, hector! What makes it so funny is that it's just so opposite of true!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-20-2007, 07:21 PM | #173 | |
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01-20-2007, 08:17 PM | #174 |
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I have a close personal friendship with one lesbian right now at my college, and I have witnessed the transformation of another friend from lesbian to heterosexual. I have also homosexual and formerly homosexual acquaintances who aren't personal friends, though they are acquaintances. And this isn't counting my relationships with people of other sexual orientations here on Entmoot.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-20-2007 at 08:27 PM. |
01-21-2007, 07:05 AM | #175 |
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That is a good example that sexual identities aren't just black and white. There is no clear line between heterosexuality and homosexuality or even heterosexuality and bisexuality and when we divide people into groups - heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals etc. - we simplify and we let our own ideas, beliefs and prejudices influence us when we decide who should belong to which group.
Gayness can't be measured
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01-21-2007, 12:15 PM | #176 | |
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I'm not sure how your conclusion follows, either, but I will make a couple points on this. First is that one's own ideas or beliefs as to who should belong to each group aren't necessarily wrong. Second is that the argument also goes both ways. If what you're saying is true, then people here who say that homosexuals can't change and become heterosexual are also simplifying and allowing their beliefs, ideas or prejudices influence them as to who should belong to which group.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-21-2007 at 12:25 PM. |
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01-21-2007, 03:01 PM | #177 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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01-21-2007, 04:26 PM | #178 | |
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You told me earlier, in the American Culture thread, that you like movies . We're alike on that point, anyway. But your telling me that you like movies isn't proof that you do. Maybe you're lying- how am I to know? I don't think you're lying, because you very much seem to me to be truthful to what you believe on this site. You seem to me to be that way all the time. So your word is good evidence, as far as I'm concerned. Not proof, because as you rightly point out, I can't know what's going on in your head. But your word is good evidence, and I believe you. Wouldn't you consider the personal accounts of your friends about their feelings to be evidence that what they're saying is true?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-21-2007 at 04:28 PM. |
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01-21-2007, 04:34 PM | #179 |
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A leopard cannot change his spots. A biologically extant trait cannot be erased. It can be denied, and by force of will and choice, be denied, in order to conform for whatever reasons, but the leopard will still be spotted. Even if he's become convinced that a vegetarian life is morally better for him than that of a carnivore, he will always yearn for meat, eating leaves and trees til his dying day he will want what he is genetically pre-disposed to want, as it is his born nature, to be a carnivore, not an herbivore. And he can swear up and down that his spots mean he's now a giraffe, but the truth is - he is not and never will be a giraffe, only a reformed leopard. And shame upon those outside forces messing with his leopard mind to get him to be ashamed of and deny his leopard-ness. Shame upon such wicked forces.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 01-21-2007 at 04:36 PM. |
01-21-2007, 05:26 PM | #180 |
Elf Lord
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Now you're arguing based on genetics, but you didn't answer my question. I'm basically saying, "If your friend told you he was delighted about something, would you distrust him immediately and think what he's saying is just as likely to be false as true?" I suspect that if his word was that questionable, you wouldn't have him as a friend. So personal testimony is evidence, and the more you trust the person, the stronger the evidence is for you.
From your most recent post, you seem to me to be basically saying, "but homosexuality is genetic, so this testimony can't be true." That doesn't mean that the testimony is not evidence. It just means you don't think it's sufficient evidence, because of your take on the genetic evidence. Jonathan is right that current scientific theory is considering the possibility that homosexuality comes from a mixture of biology and environmental influence. The verdict is still out on the source of homosexuality. My view, though, is that the eyewitness accounts badly weaken the case that homosexuality comes from biology. I trust those I know who have told me that they used to be homosexual, but now are heterosexual. Hence, for me personally the case for homosexuality being genetic is completely invalidated. But you and others here have not met the same people I have. For all you know, I might be too trusting of the people I have met. From your perspective, maybe they tricked me. That must be a possibility. Hence, while for me personally the accounts of those I have met invalidate the possibility that homosexuality is genetic, for you, they will be less compelling evidence than they are for me (because you don't know the people personally). They must, however, still be evidence. Not such strong evidence as they are for me, but evidence nonetheless.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-21-2007 at 05:38 PM. |
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