03-17-2005, 05:33 PM | #161 | |||
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Interesting RĂ*an. No time limit or anything. If I had to guess what Biblical submission is? Hm... I really don't have much of idea... but I have to admit that I am suspicious of this idea for two reasons.
1. the word "submission" - this does not have any positive connotations that I'm aware of 2. The pretty much non-existant status of women in the different cultures that wrote the Bible and/or were around when it was written. (I know it took a long time to write, but I don't think the status of women improved much over that period of time.) Lastly, I completely fail to see why gender should determine one's role in the marriage. It should be a two-way street (which does seem possible by what you posted previously), but also we should play on our strengths and enjoyments in a marriage, not adhere to some bizarre gender code. In short, I'd say that I see Biblical submission as a strange gender code with no apprent purpose (though I acknowledge that I don't know any possible purpose, this isn't the Bible's fault ). That being said, I'll certainly keep and open mind to your explanations. Judgement will be reserved for understanding. Quote:
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03-17-2005, 05:46 PM | #162 |
Elven Maiden
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Ok RĂ*an, enlighten me. What *is* the biblical submission? With the things you've ruled out I don't know what's left.
Nurvi, I think that gender makes a difference because it's in our nature. I wish I could remember those examples-I've been running around trying to do other things so I haven't looked it up. But some people are different. It's just in general, I think. Am I wrong? |
03-17-2005, 05:54 PM | #163 | ||
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Gender does make a small difference. If my husband and I are deciding who will breastfeed our baby, I think I'll field that one. But as to who would bottle feed our baby - we can both do that as fits the needs of our baby and us. Beyond biology, gender roles are determined by society. If you don't like the role set down for you, you don't have to follow it. Societies are fluid and changeable.
I think religion and the Bible are part of society. If Biblical submission is something I won't want to subscribe to, it is (yet another) gender role that I would reject. I'm going to reserve comments on this now, until RĂ*an has explained more, since I still don't know much.
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03-17-2005, 06:04 PM | #164 | |
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03-18-2005, 06:22 AM | #165 | ||
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Ah, but how much of that is biology and how much is culture? I'm sure at least part of it is biology, but certainly not all.
I think I too am one of those more testosterone-exposed girls. Hehe. Nature likes variation though it seems.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-19-2005, 01:21 PM | #166 |
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It's pretty broadly acknowledged that there are some definite differences between the sexes. Men and women have some rather significant differences between them. For example in a romance, men tend to have more physical needs while women more emotional. There are many other aspects. It's visible in many of today's books. There are books for men and books for women. If men and women were mentally the same (it's tough for me playing around with language at the moment- don't get the impression I'm saying either is inferior or superior!), books would be addressed to both together. You wouldn't find some books for one sex and some books for the other. Men and women have different emotional needs and different advantages. Give a woman a flower and it makes her day. Give a man a flower and it confuses him (and in our modern culture, might also worry him). Give him a roll of measuring tape and he'll be more happy . Many women love romance novels, while many men love James Bond. James Bond is more oriented toward men (though there are women that like it too) while romance novels are clearly a feminine thing. There's a scene in "Sleepless and Seattle" that captures this very well, where the men show their love for "The Dirty Dozen" and the woman shows her extreme emotion concerning "An Affair to Remember." What was described in that movie really is real .
The argument that these things are entirely related to culture doesn't fit the available data. The first evidence of this is that men and women have been noted to be different largely throughout time. There aren't exceptions. A second argument is largely simple genetics! It seems to me obvious that men and women wouldn't have brains that are exactly the same. Men and women certainly have different bodies- that they should have different minds and different natures is logical. You see the same thing in many other species aside from humans too- it is very rare that you'll find the male and female of a species having the same characteristics. They fulfill different roles, have different natures and different jobs. This is visible throughout all the species . . . I can't think of one where the male and female of a species have precisely the same role. You won't find any black widow spiders where the male eats the female . . . quite the reverse . . . . Off-topic. That's purely physical, like the breast feeding. Anyway . . . So that human males and females differ seems to me pretty obvious. The Bible sets out describing how those differences support one another, how those difference fit one another's weak points. Men have some weak points that we need women to help us fill. Women have some weak points that they need men to fill. This I think is one of the things that makes marriage beautiful too, truly beautiful, and which any homosexual marriage by definition would be lacking. Anyway, what the Bible is talking about is masculinity and femininity. It acknowledges the fact that men and women are different, with different strengths and weaknesses ingrained in them, and it shows how they can best work together and fit together. From here on I will definitely prefer to leave it to RĂ*an.
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03-19-2005, 01:25 PM | #167 |
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genderisation is an Ideological State Apparatus, pure and simple
as is every other aspect of life, most of which is aimed at furthering the proletariat submission, in order to keep the bourgois in power. |
03-19-2005, 01:52 PM | #168 |
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Are you arguing that all the gender-specific books out there can apply equally to male and female? (Lifts eyebrows a fair distance)
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-19-2005, 01:55 PM | #169 |
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i dont know, i dont know anything anymore, everything i thought i knew is on it's head, why oh why did i take a-level sociology??
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03-19-2005, 02:00 PM | #170 |
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Lol!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-19-2005, 06:41 PM | #171 | |||
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Interesting post Lief. I wasn't saying it was 100% culture and society, I just think it is largely culture and society. Of course there are biological differences. I also think it's exceedingly difficult to separate cultural and biological influences since both have been acting on humankind since we have existed.
As a side note, what on Earth is a gender-specific book? You mean like Lurlene McDaniel romance (I think she writes) books? I think you listed a significant amount of generalizations in your first paragraph that, of course, do not apply particularly well to an individual person. And it's individuals who get married. Also, an important part from the end of your post: Quote:
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03-19-2005, 08:36 PM | #172 | |||||
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I think that someone who is unmarried is missing out on something that would enhance their lives. There can be good reasons for doing this, nonetheless. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-20-2005, 11:23 AM | #173 | |
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03-20-2005, 11:53 AM | #174 | |
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I really wish you would stop with these false claims about evolution and an "assumption of naturalism" As for dinosaurs developing into reptiles and is supported by the bible. The problem with that is that is the OLD scientific theory. It is NO LONGER felt that dinosaurs developed into repitles - but actually developed into birds. Isn't SCIENCE great!!! YAY Science!!! It changes it's hypothesis when the evidence suggests something else and does not stick endlessly to the old thoughts.
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03-20-2005, 12:48 PM | #175 | ||
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This is the Theology thread JD... (I'm just not sure what you mean or where that quote is from.)
Lief, one comment for you - I don't think "What a Woman Wants in a Man" et al accurately represents gender differences. There are differences between men and women, but they are not the same for everyone, nor does a random "help" book define what they are. I know you were just citing this as an example but it does bring up a good point. Men and women and individuals and human beings. Gender is part of one's identity (and of varying importance depending on the person); it is not the sole definition of a person's identity.
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03-20-2005, 12:53 PM | #176 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-20-2005 at 01:04 PM. |
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03-20-2005, 01:40 PM | #177 | ||
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RĂ*an, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on submission, since it's one of the parts I was never convinced by in Mere Christianity
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 03-20-2005 at 01:41 PM. |
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03-20-2005, 03:04 PM | #178 | |||
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Like Nurvi said, there is some masculinity and some femininity in both men and women, to varying amounts in each. However, the vast majority of men are strongest in the masculine side, while the vast majority of women are more toward the feminine side. Thank goodness for that, for us men! We couldn't do without you. And I'm not talking about the biological sense. Quote:
My father, meanwhile, is highly intellectual. The Lord has blessed him with gifts of wisdom and understanding. He is amazingly perceptive and is capable of looking at any kind of issue objectively, seeing it from many angles and analyzing it. He complements my mother perfectly. She has the tremendous heart of love, combined with magnificent gifts for art and music, as well as knowledge of language and down-to-earth things that make the house function. My father meanwhile, the leader of the family, is of course still loving, though not the same way as my mother. He fills the different areas my mother lacks. What my father lacks in overwhelming compassion, my mother has. What my mother lacks in broad vision, my father is overflowing with. He is a mathmetician, a technician and an engineer. He is studying geology, history, geography, science, and is very knowledgeable in all of these. Meanwhile, my parents continue to live in harmony with the Biblical model. They discuss decisions together and make decisions together, as one. My father really is the leader of the family though, the head my mother . . . "bends to" is not the right way of saying it. She leans on him more then she bends to him. They work together as one, and in matters of major decision she relies on him. She does this from her own desire, her own will, and it is her form of "submission". Now as to them having common interests and tastes. They do have common interests and tastes. We recently had our house remodelled, and their tastes were the same. Their tastes in music and art are all the same. They seem to agree on just about everything. However, they still have strong suits and weak suits that complement one another. That, in my opinion, is God's ideal for marriage.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-20-2005, 03:08 PM | #179 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-21-2005, 08:10 AM | #180 | ||
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This doesn't mean that I'm saying people should marry their identical twin - just that it's not possible for us to say that a marriage between opposites is the ideal marriage. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. How then can it be the ideal? Since it is so difficult for us to create a model for the ideal marriage between two hypothetical, highly stylised extremes of behaviour - emotional and analytical - it is far more difficult to prescribe an ideal based on supposed male/female characteristics which we can't even all agree on. Incidentally, I don't think the terms 'emotional' and 'intellectual/analytical' are opposites, and I don't think it's possible to categorise people as either feminine and emotional or masculine and analytical. It's a spectrum - and unless you know where each individual falls on the spectrum, you can't prescribe their ideal marriage. To be honest, I'm rather dismayed by the concept of a Christian ideal which can't possibly apply to everyone. Is a marriage between a man and a woman who don't precisely fit the typical masculine/feminine roles a failure, in Christian terms?
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 03-21-2005 at 08:28 AM. |
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