10-26-2005, 05:09 PM | #161 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,080
|
from that tree creationist statements that place the flood 4-5000 years ago, are supported.
__________________
I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
Quote:
|
||
10-26-2005, 05:17 PM | #162 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
I wasn't saying that that tree disproves Creationist theories, since obviously it doesn't. I wanted to point out that since we can directly observe something that old, extrapolation shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
I think it's interesting that trees are not only the oldest, but also the largest organisms in the world! (Unless we figure out how mycchorizal colonies work. Then they win.) But... didn't Abraham live before the flood, and wasn't he over 900 years old? Then, if the flood took place 5000 years ago, that means Abraham was born only 100 years after the Earth was created. Well, I guess that fits. But for a supernatural being, God is sure in a big fat hurry! Actually, I think there was a flood 5000 years or so ago too. IIRC, Sumerian records mention a huge flood, as well as possibly others. But, the presence of a major flood 5000 years ago doesn't mean that the world is only 6000 years old. Also, geologists have determined that there was an ice age 10'000 years ago. Something existed then to have the ice age on!
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
10-26-2005, 05:57 PM | #163 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
Rohirrim, check again. Adam lived 130 years before begetting Seth, Seth lived 105 to beget Enos, Enos lived 90 to beget Cainan, Cainan lived 70 to beget Mahalaleel, Mahalaleel lived 65 to beget Jared, Jared lived 162 to beget Enoch (2), Enoch lived 65 years to beget Methusaleh, Methusaleh lived 187 years to beget Lamech, who lived 182 years to beget Noah, and Noah lives 500 years before the flood (all data from Genesis, Chapter 5, KJV).
That is 1374 years from Adam's creation to the Flood. So if the world was created in 4004 BC, the flood has to happen in 2630 BC. That tree is 4789 years old. 2005-4789=-2784, or 2784 BC. I would argue, however, that the tree certainly doesn't "support" OR "deny" creationist ideas of the flood, for the flood wouldn't have destroyed plants anyway... else where did the olive tree come from? But Nurv's point is good, I think, that the extrapolations aren't too insane... c.f. my own posts about dating technique veracity. The idea is that we can observe that radioactive decay in elements with the same process but shorter half-lives works perfectly regularly by half-life (ie for cesium, which is used in atomic clocks). We then extrapolate that the same applies to other elements, because they use the exact same process, and use that for dating.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
10-26-2005, 09:10 PM | #164 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,080
|
ahh yes the ice age, where do you get all the water to form all of that ice? the flood perhaps.
__________________
I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
Quote:
|
||
10-26-2005, 10:41 PM | #165 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: College!
Posts: 1,976
|
What's up with all the literal fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible? (No offense intended)
I think that the Bible isn't word-for-word literal scientific evidence...mostly it's about the origin of sin, not the origin and history of man. And what does the Flood have to do with Creationism???
__________________
Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
10-27-2005, 02:01 AM | #166 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
rohirrim - the oceans, like the water is going BACK to right now.
That literal fundamentalist view, from me at least, was only intended as a discouragement of young earth theory. Flood has to do with creationism because they happen to be religious beliefs about physical events contained in the same (Judeo-Christian, basically) holy writings.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
10-27-2005, 11:46 AM | #167 | |||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,080
|
Quote:
__________________
I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
10-27-2005, 11:52 PM | #168 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
Ok, the essay topic:
"Write an essay in which you take a position on whether creationism and/or intelligent design should be taught in science classes in public schools. Based on the first amendment, should these concepts be taught exclusively, tuaght side by side with evolution or not taught at all? Give the reasons for your position" It is for an essay contest, so I can't really post it here. Maybe long after it is done. This topic should be helpful
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
10-28-2005, 08:55 AM | #169 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
cool, i'd like to see it when done
i'd say it has very little to do with the first amendment... the first amendment allows freedom of speech, but it does not require each and every single opinion to be expressed in every public forum... it just requires none to be suppressed evolution should be taught in science class 'cause it is a scientific theory... ID should not because it is not a scientific theory however, considering that many people throughout the world have creationist beliefs of all kinds, i'd highly suggest that something like comparative religions/philosophies of the world should be specific required course study in addition to english, science, math and history
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-28-2005, 09:21 AM | #170 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
bj, the first amendment also includes the establishment of religion clause
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
10-28-2005, 01:34 PM | #171 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Quote:
but if presented in it's own forum, along with other belief-related (as opposed to observation-related) "sciences" would probably be acceptable, as long as somewhat equal coverage was given to all the major belief systems found in the world we live in
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
10-28-2005, 02:25 PM | #172 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Quote:
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
|
10-28-2005, 02:55 PM | #173 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
madison (who helped draft the clause) and jefferson addressed these issues: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||||
10-28-2005, 03:01 PM | #174 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof This and whats been posted afore are in agreement. Surprise. Establishment means by law, not teaching a viewpoint. If anything the founding fathers wanted freedom of expression which negates NOT teaching.
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
10-28-2005, 03:19 PM | #175 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
Mandating the teaching of a particular religious belief IS establishing that religion, because it is giving that religion a preference over others - and this has been backed up by numerous Supreme Court decisions. Freedom of expression, by the way, has nothing to do with teaching - only with expressing your views. You are not guaranteed a particular forum (ie a classroom) in which to express those views. My teacher can scream over and over that God created the world in 6 days, under freedom of expression: however, to do that in his capacity AS teacher, in a publicly established, funded, and run institution, would be illegitimate, because in that capacity he speaks not as a private citizen but as a government employee.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
10-28-2005, 03:32 PM | #176 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
Quote:
However, classes which teach various views of creation and evolution are not establishing a religion and I think that's the line some keep crossing in their protesting teaching of anything but what they want taught. Our government does not Mandate teaching any one theory, fact or idea. Individual states or universities may arrange course descriptions but that's not the same thing.
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-28-2005 at 03:35 PM. |
|
10-28-2005, 03:58 PM | #177 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
10-28-2005, 05:04 PM | #178 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
Spock - look at the Dover school case: it mandates the teaching of ID - science teachers are required by law to read a statement about ID to their classes. So yes, there are cases in which this is very directly mandated.
In other cases, as I mentioned, a teacher in a public school district, or a public university, is in a capacity as a government employee, and so their actions are bounded in the same way - they can no more themselves mandate the teaching of a specific, religious belief regarding human development than the legislature could pass such a law. A comparative theology class is different - or even a science class that taught the problems with evolution and introduced every religion's belief about human creation (although that would be objectionable on the NOT SCIENCE grounds) - because it does not prefer one religion over all others.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
10-28-2005, 08:42 PM | #179 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
Quote:
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
|
10-29-2005, 12:03 AM | #180 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
We have a representative government. The school board is an organ of government. In both cases, the government is theoretically "people who reflected what they want taught." The reason we have constitutional protections is so that a majority can't just do whatever they want because they put people in charge who reflect their views - there are certain limits. One of those is establishment of religion.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Evidence for Evolution | jerseydevil | General Messages | 599 | 05-18-2008 02:43 PM |
How to teach evolution & Evidence for Creationism | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 1199 | 10-05-2005 04:43 AM |
Evidence for Creationism and Against Evolution | Rían | General Messages | 1149 | 08-16-2004 06:07 PM |