06-23-2006, 11:31 PM | #161 |
Elf Lord
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Offend anyone? Nahhh!
On a serious note for those interested in the relation of TDC to history, I commend this review and the actual text mentioned if you care for history and Christianity or Christ: http://www.eppc.org/news/newsID.1622/news_detail.asp Now, for Elfhelm! I commend to your perusal THE VICTORY OF REASON: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark, University Professor of the Social Sciences, Baylor University. His PhD is from the University of California, Berkeley. I think you will find it helpful in this regard. The introduction alone is an education in how Christianity laid the basis for western advancement and was its chief resource and architect. Marx, whose suffragettes you mention (meaning I am sure the American version and not the literal sufferers of his in Communist Russia), is mentioned within the first page as extolling the virtue of capitalism over the indolence of humanity prior to that point. My point is that the status of women considered as economic entities, which is your point, was allowed and enabled and enfranchised to accomplishment by the same. Let me know what you think of the idea. You have a lot of confusions. Hence, to pique your interest and to challenge the common view, I will type out a pertinent excerpt: "During the past century, Western intellectuals have been more than willing to trace European imperialism to Christian origins, but they have been entirely unwilling to recognize that Christianity made any contribution (other than intolerance) to the Western capacity to dominate. Rather, the West is said to have surged ahead precisely as it overcame religious barriers to progress, especially those impeding science. Nonsense. The success of the West, including the rise of science, rested entirely on religious foundations, and the people who brought it about were devout Christians. (xi) ... ...freedom was also essential... . To sum up: the rise of the West was based on four primary victories of reason. The first was the development of faith in progress within Christian theology. The second victory was the way that faith in progress translated into technical and organizational innovations, many of them fostered by monastic estates. The third was that, thanks to Christian theology, reason informed both political philosophy and practice to the degree that responsive states, sustaining a substantial degreee of personal freedom, appeared in medieval Europe. The final victory involved the application of reason to commerce, resulting in the development of capitalism within the safe havens provided by the responsive states. These were the victories by which the West won. (xiii)" Interested? I would, contra Elfhelm, assert that parallel progression is in fact a causative relationship economically and socially. Women were elevated in direct parallel to these economic events. And for support, I would turn to a feminist history of chess: THE BIRTH OF THE CHESS QUEEN: A History by Marilyn Yalom. To quote the flyleaf intro: "In a lively and engaging narrative, Yalom draws parallels between the birth of the chess queen and the ascent of female sovereigns n Europe... . Further, she shows the connection between the chess queen, the cult of the Virgin Mary, and the cult of Romantic Love, all of which influenced European societies for centuries to come." Marilyn Yalom is a senior scholar at the Institute for Women and Gender at Stanford University. Now, Elfhelm, please do not take me to say that either of these scholars would endorse my points precisely as I make them. I merely point out that far from being the beknighted source of all oppression as commonly falsely assumed and asserted, Christianity is the agent which allowed these changes to occur in society and science. And it is evident in so apparently innocuous a pasttime as chess (which, by the by, was forbidden by Islam and Christianity at various times in both's histories). But, read, think, and let me know your take.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-24-2006, 04:02 AM | #162 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Quote:
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06-24-2006, 04:08 AM | #163 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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p.s. I know the second paragraph has the four salient points. I'll get back to that, I promise.
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06-24-2006, 10:46 AM | #164 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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For what it is worth, I don't deny that most western philosophers were theists. I, too, am a theist. But how many of them would agree that the only reason they can get into heaven is because a moralist from the Roman era in Palestine was crucified? Because that's the difference between a generic theist and a Christian.
I don't see what this has to do with anything here, or that is it an argument against anything I have said. The Birth of the Chess Queen does seem like useful material an argument against women's oppression by the men of the cloth, which is a topic in the fictional novel DaVinci Code, and that is the topic, so it does merit reply. But I'm only replying to the other comments out of respect. They're totally off topic. They belong in some sort of science vs church thread. (Which, if you start it, they'll merge it with theology.) |
06-26-2006, 12:13 PM | #165 |
Elf Lord
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Consilience, Elfhelm, consilience........
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-26-2006, 02:22 PM | #166 | ||
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Personally, I think drawing causative relations between unrelated events based entirely on their chronological coincidence is jumping to conclusions. And belief in premature conclusions is superstition. Even if it later turns out to be true, it was arrived at by accident. My friends insist that they have insights that allow them to leap over the logical steps necessary to prove causation. Since they are my friends, I don't give them a hard time about it. But inside my own cranium, in my own little skeptical universe, I remain unconvinced. When they are in the mood for mental jousting, though, I cheerfully mount my mental destrier. Quote:
And since that is your major premise, claiming that technical advancements were fostered in the monasteries, that reason in politics resulted in personal freedom in the medieval era, all resulting in commerce etc., is words written with no foundation. But I will discuss the pre-Rennaisance. The printing press, first used to print the Bible. The communal societies of the Franciscans. The importation of middle eastern culture during the crusades. They were all important steps leading up to the Rennaisance. And Chrysostomas (I can't say for sure if I named the right guy), a priest, brought the Greek philosophers' works to Italy after the fall of the Byzantine Empire. All these changes caused people to think that maybe something better was possible. But it was reading the works of Plato and Aristotle that really put a fire under it all. The establishment of the Academy in Florence along the lines that Plato created in Ancient Greece. That's right. Those darn PAGANS again! Also, it can be shown that Byzantium fell because of arrogance and closed-mindedness, supported greatly by faith in arcane dogma.* I am, obviously, of the opinion that the early advancement were made in spite of the resistance from the conservatives in power in the Church, not because of it. And I can easily find plenty of evidence. But WOMEN did not get equality at this time. It was all about men getting free from the mental slavery of dogma. They wanted to be rich, and that meant creating capitalism. Any church involvement in that affair was how to fleece the capitalists. And the fact that many of these capitalists were humanists may have been solely based on their desire not to pay taxes to an organization that was only selling forgiveness for sins that they themselves were committing. So not believing in an afterlife became popular. But I agree that many greats from Bacon through Kant were theists. I don't think that means the Church itself fostered progressive attitudes. * = i.e., The Ottoman Turks may have had gunpowder and cannons, but the Byzantine Empire had God on its side. Which would you rather have? ((Of course, nowadays you can have both, as seen on TV.)) Last edited by Elfhelm : 06-26-2006 at 02:49 PM. |
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07-19-2006, 06:07 PM | #167 | |
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07-19-2006, 06:11 PM | #168 | |
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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10-12-2006, 03:19 PM | #169 | |
Hobbit
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I'm enjoying reading this thread, though, and hope to join soon.
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12-21-2008, 06:43 PM | #170 |
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Just started reading this for a second time. I get so into it, it all seems like it could be real. I eventually snap out of it.
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