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07-10-2006, 06:32 PM | #161 | |||
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved. Last edited by jammi567 : 07-10-2006 at 06:51 PM. |
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07-11-2006, 11:54 AM | #162 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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bumping.
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07-11-2006, 12:27 PM | #163 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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So, no one to argue my other points? Come on guys .
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07-11-2006, 12:34 PM | #164 | |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
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Second part = i dod realize that, i just wanted other members to take notice of it.
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07-11-2006, 12:36 PM | #165 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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When? In the Third Age. Not too early, as he really took shape etc in Mirkwood around 1000 or even later. The nazgul, as we know from one quoite in UT, fled East after the Fall of Sauron, and presumably remained there. Quote:
Now, Sauron, fully embodied or not, sits in Mirkwood. The Witch-King with his Ring sits in Carn Dum, surrounded by an army of orcs and men. How would Sauron arrange this direct confrontation? Come to Carn-Dum? Even with his ring he couldn't have withstood a whole army (as we saw in the Last Alliance). Invite the WK to Dol-Guldur, to share a keg of ale and discuss old times? The nazgul is no fool (and don't make me quote LoTR here - you can find the quotes easily enough). So the only time he could have taken the Witch-King's ring was between 1975 and 1980, when the WK travelled defeated to Mordor - (that is CAB's timing), or a thousand years later, in 2942-2951, when Sauron collected all the Rings he could, has grown in Power and returned to Mordor (my timing). And don't tell me the nazgul surrendered their Rings willingly. Even Bilbo didn't, not really. And for the nazgul, as they were already wraiths, giving their Rings to Sauron meant much more than for the living - it was their second enslavement. |
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07-11-2006, 01:02 PM | #166 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I din't know about the others, but I am tired of discussing this point over and over. The FACT that no blade appeared out of the Barrows for 1500 years is proof enough for me. If you prefer Tom's chatter to the facts, fine with me. Quote:
Subserviency yes, the nazgul did show that. And the REASON for all this "loyalty" and subserviency is explained unambiguously in UT: Sauron had their Rings. It is a big mistake to extrapolate this loyalty/subserviency to the period when Sauron did NOT have their rings - i.g. to the Angmar Kingdom period. Quote:
How long does it normally take for mounted men to travel from Calenardon to Gundabad and back again? TWO months? Sure, Sauron was angry, anyone would have been. And being unable to catch 4 hobbits who carried the Ring that was like a radar to them? And so on... And that are only FACTS from the LOTR and UT. What about the period we know so little about? From TA 1 to TA 2951? I suppose the poor Sau was sitting all alone and abandoned in Mirkwood while his wraiths were busy building their own kingdoms. The WK practically took Sauron's place of the Dark Lord. Was Sau happy? Quote:
The One Ring when it is NOT WIELDED is no hook for anybody - neither for the nazgul, nor for the Elves with the Three. Its existance only assures that the other Rings still have power and that Sauron lives. But its existence didn't preclude the Elves from WIELDING the Three, neither did it hamper the Nazgul with the Nine. |
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07-11-2006, 01:45 PM | #167 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
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whatcha want a arguing Sir? I am at your disposal Noble Landroval. Your choice, sir...but by prefernce i avoid the pistol and the rapier ... barrow blades are hard to come by, and to my mind largely forgotten in the nether deserted lands since the kings went away ....so i suggest that which is mightier than the very swords of legend .... the pen! yet, sir...even now is the pen but a distant fable that fades from memory .... thus sir i suggest we reconvene under agesis (sp?) of the killer stroke of the fabled fingertips.... what say you? name your subject sir! written by my second, yours ever truly, number 2. (ever does he piss in the middle earth wind ...) Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-11-2006 at 01:46 PM. |
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07-11-2006, 02:12 PM | #168 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
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- IIRC, the swords were found in the tomb of Arveleg of the Arthedain - at that time, the elves, Arthedain and Cardolan were fighting together against Angmar These two facts make the idea of swords made only in Cardolan and unknown to the others too doubtful - there was just one wight guarding the tomb in which the nazguls knew there were the dreadful swords; we know that the elves don't fear the nazguls, so one wight is of no use against them; The forces of evil (or at least their leadership) knew of all these. That they took this risk of leaving them with such a low defence, which proved to be inefective, means that they didn't actually care about it - in the final version of LotR, there is absolutely no one stating any connection of the swords to whatever power against the nazgul, not even when the w-k is killed. Quote:
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07-11-2006, 02:58 PM | #169 |
Elf Lord
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Location: here and there
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One Wight?
How do you know? Perhaps at the time of the Fellowship, but do we know beyond all doubt that there were no other wights or other security in days gone by? For myself i will argue with anyone who would lay any OTHER claim that it would have gone ultimately ill for even plucky frodo against the Wight were it not for Tom Bombadill, heh bombadillo and he is not an average nor determinable character by any stretch .... he sticks to his own small boundaries and world and cares little for the events outside it ..that we know and is clear - but Tom, the oldest of the old is not to be underestimated in the slightest - he to whom the ring is meaningless and has no power over him - be it not for him (jolly Tom) though - are you really sure the Hobbits would ever have left the barrow? Nay! For chance if you will, and i for myself, will not, happened as it seems to take them Via the willow and hence to old Tom Bombadil and his lady... best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-11-2006 at 03:02 PM. |
07-11-2006, 03:19 PM | #170 | ||||||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
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Last edited by Alcuin : 07-11-2006 at 03:49 PM. |
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07-11-2006, 04:10 PM | #171 | |
Elf Lord
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Would anyone care, then, to argue that Anduril would not have had this effect and power, chief among swords of the Dunedain, wrought in the mists of time and re-forged with many runes etc etc? Of course this is all conjecture, but i would personally be loath to read too much into that passage in any serious way that on the sole basis of that dramatic paragraph went the next step to excluding blades such as Anduril etc. .... Glad to see you, Alcuin and myself among (hopefully!) others are obliging good ol Landroval in his desire for an argument ! Bring it on!!! Best all, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-11-2006 at 04:12 PM. |
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07-11-2006, 04:22 PM | #172 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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07-11-2006, 04:42 PM | #173 | |||
Salt Miner
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I think it best to assume that permanent burials of ritual and state would not be made until after the fighting had subsided, since neither kingdom (Arthedain or Cardolan) likely had the convenience of relative peace in which to do the honors due a ruler. Quote:
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Although, it would be rather unusual in literature for a “non-magical blade” to break a spell... Of course, Aragorn made some comment about the knives being “wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.” But perhaps he was merely speaking metaphorically? |
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07-11-2006, 04:45 PM | #174 | |||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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We know that the Barrow-Downs were the burial place of the Edain since the First Age. Valandil here thinks that the first Kings of Arnor (Valandil son of Isildur etc.) were also buried there. May be. But I am pretty sure that once Arnor became divided, no Kings of Arthedain or Rhudaur were buried there anymore. The three Kingdoms were almost perpetually at war. Would you bury your King far away in the enemy territory? No, I guess there were Royal tombs in Fornost, much like Rath Dinen in Minas Tirith. Now let us take the case of Arveleg. He was slain at Amon Sul, which was overrun by Angmar. They hardly managed to save the Palantir. Most likely, they also took with them the body of their King, if they DID manage to retrieve it at all. Now the Arthedain troops were driven to Fornost, while Cardolani guys were besieged at Tyrn Gorthad. The allied Arthedain-Cardolan army was cut in two and driven into different directions. How could the body of Arveleg be buried at Tyrn Gorthad? No way. Quote:
Secondly, there is no reference that the elves (NOT "High", or Calaquendi Elves) didn't fear the nazgul. There is evidence for the opposite: Quote:
Thirdly, yes, there was likely approximately one wight per barrow. The Witch-King supposedly never visited Barrow-Downs himself, before 3018, so how could he know in which tombs there were the BD TM swords and in which there weren't? There was likely a tomb of this last prince of Cardolan's father and granddad, uncles and nephews, every one of these latest tombs might be filled with the swords. And consider, as Alcuin pointed out, that the Wights had to occupy all the barrows to prevent the Cardolani hiding there or fortifying the other tombs. Quote:
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I can tell for instance, that the nazgul appeared in Angmar 300 years after Gondor conquered Harad. Is there a connection between these two facts? May be yes, may be not. Quote:
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Open disobedience was not something the nazgul were allowed to show. Little enthusiasm, yes: lagging behind, making mistakes, straying in daylight, not showing any initiative, looking for the Shire in the Vales, when the WK probably knew all along where it was, missing the ringbearer in Hobbiton, passing the ringbearer on the road, waiting till the Buckleberry ferry was afloat before appearing on the shore - that is another matter. They could not rebel :the Master had their Rings and their very existence in his hands. But the only thing they cared about were their own interests, not Sauron's. |
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07-11-2006, 05:34 PM | #175 | |
Elf Lord
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But is this not potentially somewhat disingenuous from you here Gor?? Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-11-2006 at 05:40 PM. |
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07-11-2006, 05:53 PM | #176 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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my god, this topic (how the barrow down swords affected the nazgul, and whether they were afrid of them) is just getting boring now. can't we talk about something else?
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Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved. |
07-11-2006, 05:55 PM | #177 |
Elf Lord
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Location: here and there
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...er...we usually do most of the time!
wotcha Jammi! so ..what other gigs are in town at the momment then? |
07-11-2006, 05:58 PM | #178 | |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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Quote:
__________________
Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved. |
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07-11-2006, 05:59 PM | #179 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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In Cardolan there were NO direct descendants of Isildur left, but there surely were indirect (not father-to son) ones. One of them was most likely invested with ruling Cardolan, under Arveleg's over-Lordship, but the new Ruler was called "King" no more, only "Prince". (There is somewhere an excellent thread where Valandil proposed this theory). The last prince was killed in 1409. Had the chronicle spoken of Arveleg, he would have been called "King of Arnor", for that was his title. Quote:
Here s the entry for Arveleg: Quote:
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As for the Barrows, it was not a safe place to bury anyone. Quote:
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07-11-2006, 06:01 PM | #180 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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Anyway, what about those who probably could defeat wights? Well, it seems that people like Gandalf and Glorfindel didn’t need barrow blades to face the Nazgul. There is plenty of evidence for that. So, most likely, those who were able to face the wights wouldn’t have been interested in retrieving the blades, and those who did need the blades (being the Nazguls’ weaker enemies) were unable to face the wights. This helps explain why the swords had remained hidden for so long. |
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