03-13-2007, 12:07 PM | #161 | ||||
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Al also buys his "carbon offsets" from a company he once co-chaired. Hey, it's legal, but it does look funny...can Al stop global warming by giving money to a company that eventually gives back to him? Quote:
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03-13-2007, 01:45 PM | #162 | ||||||
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Aside from that, I do believe energy comsumption in the USA could do with a little tuning down. In other western countries too by the way. And there are other important environmental reasons to do so besides climate change. Quote:
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In 50 years time we might not be under 50 cm of water (in the case of the Belgian coast) but it is still a valid possibility, and the question is whether we wish the take that risk without taking precautions. That said, not all models used to document climate change are worst case scenarios, but it is those that tend to stick in people's mind as they're the most spectacular. But really, the usuable models must be many. Quote:
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03-13-2007, 02:04 PM | #163 | |
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If there's rank hypocrisy at work here, it's coming from the right.
Now they're having a go at him for buying stuff from a company he helped run. Meanwhile, Dick Cheney shovels billions of tax dollars into Halliburton's coffers whilst still on the payroll, but they seem to be OK with that. Earniel, do not fall into their trap. Because you care about global warming, you will critique Gore's lifestyle and probably come up with lots of shortcomings. But because the Right don't care about anything except winning the argument so that they can carry on polluting for short term profit, they will use this tactic to shoot the messenger. We are simply playing into their hands. Quote:
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03-13-2007, 02:32 PM | #164 | |
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03-13-2007, 02:33 PM | #165 | |
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(And she's off on a rant, ladies and gentlemen...) This shouldn't be about winning, this should be about understanding things better. Gah, I really hate how climate change is turned into a political issue. Ditch the politics and stick to the science, dammit. I really, really hate politics, I can live with diplomacy but just. Not. Politics.
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03-13-2007, 10:17 PM | #166 | |||
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Settling the Al Gore Issue
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Do you then point fingers at the people who point out the HYPOCRISY, because they are accusing the messenger? Once again I AM NOT AGAINST Al Gore having a big home, and I really wouldn't care how much energy his three homes consumed if he wasn't such a... Look, he's from Tennessee, he's bound to be a nice guy personally; but he has been "green" for nigh on 30 years. He wrote the preface to that book in the 70's or 80's (I wasn't alive then), but he sure seems to have been living the same way those oil company CEOs do... If the messenger is a crook, can you blame people for questioning the message? Quote:
I don't think I've mixed Al and Global Warming beyond reason; I take my potshots at him, but I have not ever suggested here that the actual issue of co2s in the atmosphere and the whole theory are connected with Al's existence beyond the fact that he is the most famous proponent, and a hypocritical one. It's a proven fact that Al Gore is real, and that he is a hypocrite. There's just no way around that reality. Quote:
Someone could have been drinking bad grape juice when Mount Helens erupted years ago. Several people could have. I'm not saying that was the cause or anything...
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03-13-2007, 10:22 PM | #167 | |
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03-13-2007, 10:28 PM | #168 | |||
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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03-14-2007, 04:54 AM | #169 | |
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Source for that please.
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And what possible "agenda" could they have? It's like the Right can only understand one thing: self-interest, lining your own pockets. Therefore these people must be just trying to keep their research grants? (Never mind that there would be more money to be gained by taking some of the ample funding from oil industry to become a climate change denier.) It's what psychologists call "projection". Even a majority of Americans think it is time to act: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...&pnt=79&lb=bte Hector, Bob smokes, but smoking is still bad for you. I'll tell you how we know. It is CORRELATED with heart disease, lung cancer etc. We can't do an experiment to prove it, because it would be unethical to make people smoke. Similarly, we can't do an experiment with climate change, because, well, I'm sure you can guess. So, we have lots of different fancy scientific techniques to adjust for other factors, and time and again, these point to a strong causal link between CO2 and temperature. > 90% chance, according to the IPCC. Let me put that in perspective for you: that is far stronger than the evidence which shows that passive smoking is bad for you. Earniel: you are right. Unfortunately, THEY think it is about winning, whereas we think it is about getting the science right and critiquing both sides of the argument. Result? They win. We have to move to a situation where we recognise that people who stand in the way of doing something about climate change, for whatever reason, are actively harming our environment. I hope the above exchange helps to illuminate this. We can hate politics, but we can't escape from it. Last edited by The Gaffer : 03-14-2007 at 04:56 AM. |
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03-14-2007, 04:55 AM | #170 |
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Rohirrim, do not make me hit you...
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03-14-2007, 09:41 AM | #171 | |||
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You're referencing "average" americans the poll I'm refferring to was polling people that went to school and studied climatology, unlike algore. While the earth warms and cools, no one can give a definite answer whether its manmade, not even the hallowed U.N. report says that, it uses vague terms like "possible". Given that cows produce more methane than our cars I would hazard a guess that everything has been rigged by the beef industry, and hmm...the'yre probably paying their scientists to make up crap hu?. This is getting ridiculous. My apologies to attempt to make a point. Have a good one y'all
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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03-14-2007, 09:42 AM | #172 | |||
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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03-14-2007, 11:01 AM | #173 | |
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You'll note that there has been no attempt to rubbish their methods; the deniers are restricted to slander ("bureaucrats") and simply re-asserting the same old tripe (it's normal, it's not happening, hockey stick graph, etc etc) that has been considered, and rejected, by the IPCC review of the scientific evidence. (Can you find a source for that poll?) 2) Cars don't produce methane, so that's not surprising. But you made your point: there's conceivably SOMEONE who could benefit from taking climate change seriously and therefore it's POSSIBLE that the whole thing could be cooked up. (Of course, what you see when you look at what's going on is lots of money from the oil industry and right-wing thinktanks going to climate change deniers.) Which is all the more reason why debate needs to focus on methods and not motives. 3) It's true that no-one can give a definitive answer on this, by its very nature. You then spoil it by going on to criticise the IPCC for giving a "vague" report which ..er ..doesn't give a definitive answer. How can they win? In fact, the exact terms they used in the most recent report were "very likely", to describe whether current climate change is being caused by human activity. They went on to define this as "greater than 90% probability". Hence IMO the need to stop arguing the toss and get on with doing something about it! Your grandchildren won't thank you... |
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03-14-2007, 11:59 AM | #174 | |
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But please, stop trying to pin erroneous political etiquettes on me.
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 03-14-2007 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Next time I want to use difficult words, I should check the spelling first... :p |
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03-14-2007, 01:31 PM | #175 | |
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So to make climate change a really hot issue for the politicians, climate change has to be explained to them in terms of money. That's why the Stern Review is so great - it reflects on the costs of climate change and concluds that if the world leaders act now and invest a couple of percent of their nations' BNP to reduce greenhouse gas emissions etc., they'll avoid losing a huge portion of BNP in the future due to the effects global warming. In my mind, turning climate change into a political issue and more importantly an economical issue might be the only way to save this puny little planet.
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03-15-2007, 10:25 AM | #176 | |||
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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03-15-2007, 11:10 AM | #177 | ||
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RTR, sorry if you've interpreted my posts as personal attacks; they weren't intended as such.
However, I stand by my assertion that there is a concerted campaign from the Right to discredit the evidence on global warming by whatever means possible. There is extensive evidence to support this view, e.g.: Quote:
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This is in stark contrast to the assertion frequently made by global warming deniers that all these scientists are just cooking up a storm so they can further their own careers, for which there is no evidence whatsoever. I agree with Jonathan's comments about the Stern review. There is a lot happening on this side of the pond, or at least politicians are starting to make serious noises about it. All three main parties in the UK are vying for green credentials. The government is talking about introducing binding carbon emission targets, e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6444145.stm?ls (see also numerous recent stories on the right hand side of that page). |
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03-15-2007, 11:15 AM | #178 | |
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That's a good thing.
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Of course, they were supporting Maggie Thatcher, too. If the politicians have some green noises, they're definitely making progress. |
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03-15-2007, 02:17 PM | #179 | |
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03-15-2007, 03:28 PM | #180 |
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The bigger problem is that, short of enforced birth control, all we are doing is putting off the inevitable, not really solving anything.
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