01-05-2006, 09:55 AM | #161 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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01-05-2006, 10:00 AM | #162 |
Elf Lord
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BJ,
If you have looked seriously at the claims of Jesus of Nazareth, you would see that the man is the message. I suggest the Gospel of John, read straight through in a modern translation. The equation of YHWH and Jesus is made by Jesus and clearly understood by the rulers of Israel. It was that for which He was crucified under the cover of political insurrection. Of course, that whole resurrection thing really boggles the reality we are accustomed to, doesn't it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-05-2006, 01:13 PM | #163 | |
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from the viewpoint of many jews, for example, his message was still very important, but he was just seen as a prophet, not the son of god... thus the man and the message is not so intwined from the pov of a hindu, he might be seen as purely a gifted philosopher... but this does not necessarily lessen the message what i am saying is that while you might believe in your heart of hearts that the man and the message is intwined... if you want the message (the important part) to reach a wider audience, you should really focus on the words and not the person who delivered them if you can not separate the two, then the only person you are doing a disservice to is yourself... and you should expect reprimand in situations that call for you to address a wider audience than a purely christian one
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-05-2006, 01:17 PM | #164 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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...hmmmm, focusing on the words and not the person of bj.... ohmmmmmm
Christians focus on the man and His word as Jesus is considered the Son of God, while Jews thought him a prophet, possibly Issaih come back, Hindus didn't think about him because CNN wasn't invented yet. Last edited by Spock : 01-05-2006 at 01:21 PM. |
01-06-2006, 11:32 AM | #165 |
Elf Lord
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BJ, It is precisely the words that I encourage you to focus on. Jesus said, John 1: 47-51 preternatural knowledge of Nathaniel and the acceptance of the title Son of God, the King of Israel; prediction of the opening of heaven and the ministry of angels John 2: 16 "make not My Father's house a house of merchandise" on driving the merely commercial from the Temple - a clear assertion of equality with God John 3:16 "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." 35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand." John 4:25-26 (the woman at the well says Messiah will tell all things). Jesus saith unto her, "I that speak unto thee am He." I could cite multitudinous more passages but these clearly demonstrate the claims that Jesus made for Himself. From His viewpoint, HE was God and the source of being and salvation. These are the words He spoke. Those are the claims HE made, that the disciples made along with Him, and that the Church has always made for Him. The claims are His. The person coming to Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, regardless of aberrant doctrine claiming to be "christian", status as an Hindu, philosopher, or Jew, or aborigine (etc) must face those claims. That was His message. However, I do concur that the person who fails to understand the words of Jesus is doing a disservice: to themselves. Jesus was the message. Words were the medium, but not the only medium of the expression. His entire life, the Passion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His rule from the Trinity are the message. But to limit it to word, you must take into account the assertion that JESUS is in fact the Word, the logos, coexistent with God, with no beginning or end, without Whom nothing that is came to be! (John 1:1). To do otherwise is to discriminate on the grounds of your selectivity and willingness to accept His words. Word, Man!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-06-2006 at 11:33 AM. |
01-06-2006, 12:02 PM | #166 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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More simply, if you believe The Word, you acknowledge all the rest.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
01-06-2006, 12:19 PM | #167 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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i think you are missing the point by a country mile
the job of a military is to help console and give inspiration to the troops... all the troops the military is not saying that there is anything wrong with speaking in terms of jesus and christianity on an one-on-one basis, or even during a christian mass: Quote:
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all they are asking is for the chaplin to have the respect to focus on the universal parts of the philosophy, instead of the controversial parts both these quotes below have powerful meaning in and of themselves... who said them does not have to be a part of the picture to get the ideas across... and, not knowing the speaker, might even lead some to take them more to heart than they would if they did know the speaker: Quote:
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01-06-2006, 10:16 PM | #168 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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The job of the military is to kill people and break things! Politics has made them into "meals on wheels" .
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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01-07-2006, 01:33 PM | #169 | |
Elf Lord
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No one is claiming that Jesus never taught the Tao. He did. He in fact was its origin and fulfillment. That wise men have seen the light acknowledges the existence of the light. A point I have been at some pains to make for two years and you to avoid. The issue here is that Jesus made exclusive claims about His person that will not allow one to merely class Him as a great teacher. Great teachers do not claim Godhood (that is, I believe, your point), but Jesus did. He did not mean to leave us the option to bypass Him by that route. "I and the Father are One" in the context of the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, YHWH our God is One YHWH" can only mean a claim to be YHWH. See John 5, noting in particular verses 17 and 18: 17 - But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." 18 - Therefore the Jew(ish leaders) sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. If, as is reality, Jesus is God, then His Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection and Ascension are the critical nodes of history. Other philosophical statements about some perceived "god" are to thirst as H2O is to a glass of water. One is merely conceptional, the other is glorious reality.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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01-07-2006, 01:40 PM | #170 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Don't let the Chinese here that. Lao Tsu and company are big with the Tao.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
01-07-2006, 02:02 PM | #171 |
Elf Lord
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But it was rather missed by Mao, wasn't it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-09-2006, 10:52 AM | #172 | ||
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and to inked... i understand what christians believe... but the job of a chaplin is to appeal to all, not just christians... here's a letter from the head of army chaplins: Quote:
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01-09-2006, 11:53 AM | #173 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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However, the services have Chaplains in denominations.....just look at old M.A.S.H. episodes and you'll see that. There isn't an "all faiths" Chaplain.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
01-09-2006, 12:09 PM | #174 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
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01-09-2006, 12:25 PM | #175 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Again, "allows" doesn't cut it with Muslims. They still believe an infidel even if he/she wears the cloth. I've been there and know from experience.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
01-09-2006, 12:39 PM | #176 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-09-2006, 12:42 PM | #177 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Yes.
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01-09-2006, 01:17 PM | #178 | |
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i don't think it's as easy situation... and in some cases i am sure people will never lose their prejudices, but this does not mean that we should not try
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01-27-2006, 01:00 PM | #179 |
Elf Lord
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Of interest, perhaps....
http://www.anglicanplanet.net/TAPIntern0602f.html and this little number about the POPE and ISLAM http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatc...ves/009886.php
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-27-2006 at 01:02 PM. |
01-27-2006, 07:06 PM | #180 |
Quasi Evil
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So the pope thinks Islam is a crappy religion too eh? These kinds of petty pot shots always remind me of politicians slinging mud at each other during a campaign. What they never seem to see is how it makes politics (and religion...) in general look to those outside their particular mind set. Pathetic, petty, short sighted and hypocritical.
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