10-31-2004, 12:23 PM | #161 | ||
Elf Lord
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If we haven't the right to end the potential child, then taking any action to avoid pregnancy should be considered wrong. After all, it is stopping the potential life, taking away the chance of a nonexistent child to live and be a human. All contraception would be considered wrong, but really one could go much further then it. It almost seems to be right that we have many children, and wrong to have none (unless the woman is barren). Abortions often take place because the mother doesn't want to face the social, emotional or economical hardships that having a child entails. They also sometimes occur because the mother cannot promise the child a good future. What we look at the decision of having a child or not, we also look at some of these factors. We want to be sure we can raise the child in a comfortable environment, want to make sure that we can afford the new life. So what you're saying, if taken along its natural extent, means that we shouldn't consider those factors when we're deciding whether or not to have children. Instead, we should just have babies, babies, babies, babies! Nothing should stand in the way of life! We shouldn't care whether we'll never afford a good education for any of our children, or can't supply health coverage, or any amusements whatsoever. Life rules! Stopping the fetus from living if it is not really a human being is like smashing an insect under foot. There is nothing considered wrong with smashing the insect under foot, and in this case, it would have enormous benefits to mothers that would go into poverty, and to society as a whole, for we wouldn't have to pay for the vast number of children on our hands. That's why that argument falls apart, to me. Stopping potential life is like stopping an insect. It's that we're very possibly stopping real life that causes me to be a hardliner.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 01:15 PM | #162 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Yes, my wording was a little wrong there. What I meant is that after contraception you're taking away certain oppurtunity for life. It's like telling someone you'll do something and then not doing it. Does that make sense?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-31-2004, 02:17 PM | #163 | |
the Shrike
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10-31-2004, 02:30 PM | #164 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 02:32 PM | #165 | |
Elf Lord
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I take no pleasure in the knowledge that that would happen, and I'm certain Mertucio doesn't either. However, I feel it's far better to have more of these bad things happening, then for us to commit genocide.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 02:50 PM | #166 | ||
the Shrike
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Are you implying that those who have had abortions are undertaking in genocide? Let me provide some handy dictionary definitions:
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10-31-2004, 03:00 PM | #167 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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i think it should be any womans clear right to abort their baby. and i can't see whats so wrong with it. ok, i see it in some cases, for example where a wealthy couple have sex and the woman get pregnant, and they abort it, beacuse it 'would ruin their llife'.
i see why some mean theese should not have the opportunity to abort. bt if the baby is in some way handicaped, or the mother, and father, is in economical problems, i an't see why they can't abort. i mean you must look at the conditions for the child to grove up in, and if they are realy bad, then i mean abortion must be a choice.
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10-31-2004, 03:22 PM | #168 |
Elf Lord
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BeardofPants, yes, I do think abortion amounts to genocide. I believe it amounts to killing human beings. If this is the case, then we are committing murder on an incredible scale. To me, murder on such a massive scale as this does clearly amount to genocide.
pytt, do you see the fetus as a living child or as just a glob of cells that don't resemble a human being?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
10-31-2004, 04:02 PM | #169 | |
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I did not mean to imply that I like it when women get back street abortions. Rather, I would rather some women choose to do it illegally than many women have abortions legally. At least those unwanted abandoned babies were given a chance at life, no matter how slim it may be. IRex-- you asked who/what we are living for. I would say God, which would naturally lead to others. (however that wouldn't apply to you I'd assume). If there is no God, than yes--you would live for yourself and yourself only. If there is no God or eternal life, whatever you do during your life wouldn't matter in the "grand scheme" of things (but would a grand scheme exist? Actually...no...so even more reason why what you do doesn't matter). Everything would be based on you. Hmm...Rian, does this remind you of a certain few people in the Brothers K? And a certain few conflicts of those certain few people?
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10-31-2004, 04:03 PM | #170 |
the Shrike
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It don't amount to genocide unless it's a planned extermination of an entire peoples.
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10-31-2004, 04:07 PM | #171 |
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Oh yes: Abortion is genocide because it is the systematic mass killing of specific group of people (in this case unborn children), which is sponsored by the government (?--well, at least they aren't really doing anything to stop it)
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
10-31-2004, 04:22 PM | #172 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 04:24 PM | #173 | |
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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10-31-2004, 04:31 PM | #174 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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It may only be a small percentage, but that still is an exetremly large number. To big if you ask me.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-31-2004, 04:33 PM | #175 | |
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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10-31-2004, 07:16 PM | #176 |
Quasi Evil
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Any of you guys been picketing the Sudanese embassy lately?
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10-31-2004, 08:22 PM | #177 | |
Elf Lord
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Anyway, about your argument. Abortion is an issue within the United States, something happening within our very own country. I think that we were correct in the U.S. to fight slavery in our own country before we fought other countries' stances on taking care of their citizens. Abortion in America logically should be a more important focus to us then what happens in Sudan. Are you suggesting that because we're not fighting every battle, we shouldn't fight any battle?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-31-2004 at 08:25 PM. |
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10-31-2004, 11:57 PM | #178 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-01-2004, 12:01 AM | #179 | ||||
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I can understand the arguments of possibly feeling pain and having separate brain function and what not when the fetus is highly developed (as with the infamous partial birth abortions) but those same arguments don’t apply at the earliest stages of pregnancy. Yet many many prolifers are all or nothing in the way they view it. which leads me to conclude that’s its not so much about the fetus itself as it is about the potential of that fetus to become something that has the same rights as you or I. Its interesting to note that 50% of all successful fertilizations end in natural abortion (more apply re-absorption of the fecal material) within the first 2 or 3 weeks of pregnancy. This is a natural function of the human animal and completely normal. Im guessing for you, you would consider this an act of god and therefore ok? So in that way only god can decide who should not be given life, not you or I? Well then you are right that we have basically met the edge of our respective limits on this issue. Because yes I certainly think that the physical development of the fetus is what is paramount here. Where as you believe there is a moral aspect to this that goes beyond the physical development of the fetus. More to do with the potential for human life if I understand correctly. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-01-2004, 01:48 AM | #180 |
Elf Lord
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Lol. Well, I'm glad this discussion is pretty much resolved, for I have to disappear for five days (I only very rarely post on weekdays at all). I also have pretty much finished, I believe, a debate with Nolendil in the "why you believe what you believe" thread. Nobody's left arguing really on the Theology thread; I'm just chatting theology with Nurvingiel. So that pretty neatly concludes things here for me, until the next five days are over.
No doubt I'll be talking with you again in five days, Insidious! ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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