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#161 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Also, I would blame Aule for the dwarves, Yavanna for the two trees, etc. But they do not have blame for Everything that went wrong. Eru does (as I noted above - but too easy, he created everything). Feänor does too.
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#162 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#163 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#164 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
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So - my point is, it's not only Feanor's fault. |
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#165 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 02-08-2005 at 06:03 PM. |
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#166 | |
Word Santa Claus
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brownjenkins - I disagree about the passage from the Sil you quoted, but that's a matter of subjective interpretation. And of course Tolkien may have thought differently. All things are possible, and that may even be probable. But I'd still say we can blame Feanor for his actions, although we may ALSO be able to blame the Valar, or Morgoth, or anyone else for some specific things.
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#167 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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#168 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Don't care ,IT WAS NOT FEANOR OR ANY OF HIS SON'S FAULT!
![]() They just were the only ones to have any guts to say and think differently. Everyone blames them for the downfall of the Noldor and countless other crimes, They did where others just thought, just because they had the courage to do instead of just think they get slammed, Count me in with them ![]() ![]() |
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#169 | ||||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
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![]() I doubt that most others thought to do some of the things that the Fëanorians did... kinslaying, for example. And treason. Quote:
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#170 | ||
Honourary Elitist Inklette
Join Date: Dec 2004
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#171 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 02-12-2005 at 09:49 PM. |
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#172 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
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All right… Restating old posts for Falagar’s benefit…
![]() In my opinion, does retroactive blame should count. This is going to be a hard idea to accept, and totally disbands the idea of free will. If one believes in fate, and I mean completely believes in fate, then it would seem that everything that occurred in the past perhaps did so only to effect what would occur in the future. From my brand new (second edition ) not health-hazardous copy of the Silm, about Námo Mandos: Quote:
Few can doubt that much of what happened (we're going to say all ) in the First Age, and after, hinged on Fëanor's actions. Now... since music is often used in the Silmarillion, is it not so that a piece of music often builds up towards a climax? In this case, what comes before also is somewhat dependent upon what occurs after. Now, if we bring this logic back full circle to Fëanor, we will assuredly be able to prove (in this circuitous manner) that Fëanor is in deed responsible for almost everything. You're all going to love this one: Tolkien himself would not have created the Two Trees if not for the Silmarils. Don't you all agree? So, if not for Fëanor's existence, the Two Trees would not have existed. Likewise, if not for Fëanor and the future Silmarilli, there would have been no need to destroy the Two Trees. If there had been no need to destroy the Trees, then there would have been no need for Morgoth to be evil. And if there was no need for Morgoth to be evil, he would not have flouted Ilúvatar. Now, if we look at this from within the mythos, we have to remember that free will is a tricky thing that might not really exist at all, especially for Elves. In this case, everything seems dependent upon Ilúvatar. Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Fëanor would come. So, following my logic above, Fëanor once again causes Morgoth's rebellion. Wayfarer added his own thoughts on the idea: Try and follow me here. If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees. If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils. The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them. So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils. Manveru argued that: That's still not Feanor's fault. That's like saying its my fault this thread was started because I was going to post in it. To which I responded: Well... try to look at it all from a rather fatalistic point of view. If one of your posts somewhere along the line in this thread starts something serious or somehow changes the way we all think about Tolkien (or makes us go declare war on Mexico ![]() In which case, if you believe that fate is stuck in stone, and that such a future event had to come to pass, it most certainly is your fault, rather than mine and Chrys's, that this thread was started. And that's the sort of logic that we're using to blame Fëanor. Of course, it hinges upon the presence of fate and almost complete absence of free will, though I think such is a perfectly logical way to view Middle Earth. ![]() Mabass added: Well...Tolkien did write these books and since he did then you know that everything happened for a reason. And if everything happened for a reason(fate) then it is Feanor's fault. I think all I did was back up what Elemmire was saying...just from a different point of veiw.
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 02-12-2005 at 10:44 PM. |
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#173 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#174 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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I have a hard time swallowing the statement that Yavanna made the Two Trees just so Fëanor could make the Silmaril's. However, I am impressed that you managed to make such a cohesive argument out of blaming Fëanor for Melkor's evil.
However, there are flaws in your logic. If you apply retroacive blame, you must also apply retroactive credit. If Melkor was evil because Fëanor would later exist, then Finwë (Fëanor's father) must only have existed to father Fëanor. But he was also the father of Fingolfin and Finarfin (Fëanor's half-brothers). Finarfin is the ancestor of several notable elves, including Galadriel, Arwen, Gil-Galad, and your own beloved Finrod. So Fëanor can't be all that bad can he? ![]() Source: Galadriel's Family Tree
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#175 | ||||||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Anyway, Tolkien notes in a passage in one of his letter: Quote:
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I'll take an example, using the same logic: The Silmarillion originated from the tale of Gondolin. Without the story of Tuor there would never have been any Silmarillion. Tuor's quest to Turgon is thus the most important tale of the Silmarillion, and without it there wouldn't have been any need for anything that happend before him. Which means that Tuor is to blame for absolutely everything which happend before his birth, as well as everything that happend after him. We could use this argument to blame any of the major characters in the Silmarillion. Quote:
Yavanna created the Trees because they needed light. I don't think you can presume that Yavanna wouldn't have created the Two Trees if Ilúvatar hadn't preordained that Fëanor should exist. As tried to explain above one could do that with several other characters, for example one might say that Yavanna would probably not have felt the need to create the Two Trees if it wasn't preordained that Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë should come to Valinor, gaze upon their splendour and counsil their kindred to take the trip. Thus Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë would take the blame (and also the Elves for sending them, and the Valar for asking them to come). Quote:
And again: Evil was defeated in the end, thus by your own logic Fëanor's actions did good.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 02-13-2005 at 01:00 PM. |
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#176 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 23
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problem...i agree with the whole 'feanor sucks' thing,but if it werent for him and his messsing up things, there would have never been a numenor...the fact that it got destroyed is kinda irrelevant..
little bit off the topic, but there you go. ![]() plus there is always going to be evil,noone can change that,so fate in my opinion does not work here(agreeing with Falagar). And if the sim was just a happy story about how the elves lived happy lives,getting everything they wanted and werent corrupted in any way,noone would have read the story and it would have not been that interesting.what made it interesting is the tendancies the elves had,especially in feanors case which made him so rash.(and a little bit on the mad side,like a crazy inventor) if he hadnt been so tempremental and made the decision he had, none of the stuff would have happened. however if you used this idea,you would have to blame either his mum or dad for his mentality,cause he would have had to get it off one of them. (even though his dad was great and had the half-brothers who were fab.) |
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#177 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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#178 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Yeah, good point Fal. Because of Fëanor's son Celegorm, Huan came to Middle-earth and helped Beren and Luthien defeat Morgoth. True, Beren wouldn't have been Sauron's captive without what's-their-heads (two other of Fëanor's sons) but without this action, Luthien wouldn't have taken Morgoth down.
So perhaps without Fëanor's sons, Morgoth would not have been defeated at all! Okay, the Kinslaying is hard to get around, but it still seems that Fëanor's actions resluted in more good than evil, which is easier to take than retroactive blame (or credit). ![]()
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#179 | |||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
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It's been a really long day (I missed a bus and had to wait over an hour for the next one
![]() ![]() Debating free will would be off topic here (not that anyone would notice ![]() Quote:
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![]() Yes, by my logic, Fëanor's actions did good. I didn't add it to my post earlier, since it was slightly different from what we were discussing, but I would hazard to claim that in the end, even Morgoth's actions did some good. Here we get to the marvellous little debate over means vs. ends. The final result was good (at least in part, the fact that the majority of the Noldor had already been wiped out notwithstanding), but this doesn't invalidate the evil things that Fëanor did. And, Falagar, by your logic, we couldn't claim that Fëanor's actions did good. There were lots of other people involved, most of whom had far more obviously positive influence in the events.
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#180 | |||||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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