11-17-2002, 08:14 AM | #161 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Quote:
Would abortion still be concidered murder in such cases as ectopic pregnancy? |
|
11-17-2002, 12:19 PM | #162 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
And whether or not the law is right in this case is also very debatable. I think that it's definitely wrong, for not even the law of the nation has any right to decide whether or not these people should live or die. It smacks of what Adolf Hitler was doing in destroying the mentally or physically disabled, because they were "a drain on the economic resources." They were dehumanized and Hitler decided that the decision was up to others as to whether they should live or die. I think that you agree with me that even though it became "legal" to prevent these people from living, he had no right to make that choice. But that was murder, you might say, and this is simply abortion, for these cells aren't even alive yet! Unwittingly, you're making the same mistake Hitler made. We kill crickets and other insects, sometimes even larger creatures when they are pests and disrupting our lives. What level is this group of cells at? If you don't know whether they are a life or not, then why are you killing them? We don't know how human the mentally insane are, so why shouldn't we just kill them off? Simply becaues they're clad in a human body doesn't somehow make them better than an animal that we would kill off if it's a drain on our resources. Even if they aren't alive yet, or as fully alive as we are, it is still preventing them from being alive without their consent, and I think that the decision belongs to a higher rule than our own law. It still is taking something into your own hands which you don't have the moral right to take. That individual who was aborted could thirty years later have been happy and a blessing to all around him/her, as I said before. The decision as to whether or not that individual should live or not shouldn't be ours. Quote:
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-17-2002 at 12:27 PM. |
|||
11-17-2002, 12:31 PM | #163 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-17-2002 at 12:32 PM. |
|
11-17-2002, 12:40 PM | #164 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I was pointing out that something being legal doesn't make it right. On moral issues like this, legality isn't proof of anything. Rights are all very well and good, I agree with you, jerseydevil, on there being rights of an individual and a state. However, there is a point where free rights can become wrong. Law is there to prevent free rights from going too far and leading to evil. And I think that you're placing the line too far to one side, by dehumanizing and taking into your hands what you shouldn't.
But you know what, I really don't want to fight with you, jerseydevil, or other people. And since this is a very emotionally charged topic, now that I've stated my opinions and the reasons for them, I think I'll withdraw from the thread. |
11-17-2002, 12:53 PM | #165 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
I personally am against abortion - but I support a person choice with restrictions. I also will not judge someone for getting an abortion since I wasn't in their shoes.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
11-17-2002, 01:20 PM | #166 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Quote:
*speechless* *amazed* *very worried* Hitler was one man making a decision for a whole nation. Abortion is one person making a decision that will effect their whole lives! How do you live in a country whose law does not support you moral beliefs?? If the law was passed by such a minority, why is it still in place?? By the Gods I'm glad I don't see life as back&white as you. |
|
11-17-2002, 01:51 PM | #167 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
11-17-2002, 03:32 PM | #168 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
Quote:
A single cell taken from one’s body is alive, and it is a Human cell too, yet no one attributes any rights to it. So simply being alive is not sufficient. It is a necessary argument, but not a sufficient one. What you are doing here is using implicitly the “potential to be human” argument. You are attributing rights based on potentiality. Yet you say “Whether you have the right to prevent something being alive or not is different from whether you have the right to decide whether you're going to have a child or not”. You seem to be falling into contradiction here. Consider this: Reproductive cells have the potentiality to start a new human life too. They are also obviously alive. When one denies the possibility of becoming a human being to them (by the use of contraceptives or even, irony of ironies, by simple abstinence) a person is in effect “taking action to prevent them from being human,” an active action (in the case of the contraceptives) or a passive one (in the case of abstinence). In any circumstance it involves a deliberate choice of action, or lack of it, to deny the fulfilment of potentiality. As such, if denial of potentiality is morally wrong, the means used by a person to deny such potentiality to be fulfilled are irrelevant. But you seem to claim that this is acceptable in the case of reproductive cells, as opposite to the other case (the zygote). Yet, if one wants to remain true to the reasons you presented we would have to accept that the use of contraceptives (or even chastity) are morally wrong, since they are actions, active or passive, that prevent the potentiality of new human life to evolve into a real human. Ultimately, to be completely faithful to the argument one should became subservient to the reproductive role, obviously an unacceptable thing. So again I say, potentiality is not, by itself a valid argument. If one wishes to attribute human rights to a zygote one have to find a valid reason why. Simply saying it may evolve into a human is not enough. And if one accepts the argument of potentiality, one should accept it fully. For if not, he denies the validity of the argument.
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion Last edited by Elvellon : 11-17-2002 at 03:39 PM. |
|
11-17-2002, 03:51 PM | #169 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Quote:
But if I felt my government had laws which allow murder (as many on this thread feel abortion to be murder) then I would seriously consider relocating. |
|
11-17-2002, 04:41 PM | #170 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas).
Posts: 1,345
|
can you name western country where the laws concerning abortion are different? I'll consider moving there.
America, the land of opportunity, but only for those who are "wanted".
__________________
A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun. |
11-17-2002, 04:46 PM | #171 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Quote:
|
|
11-17-2002, 05:02 PM | #172 | |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas).
Posts: 1,345
|
Quote:
__________________
A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun. |
|
11-17-2002, 05:06 PM | #173 | ||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Quote:
Quote:
It is not that a baby simply has the potential to be human. What is it if not human? And it is not that it is simply human genetic material. It is a unique being which is different from the mother and the father. And as such it should be accorded the rights we give other human beings. Including the right to exist.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
||
11-17-2002, 05:22 PM | #174 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
ABORTION LAW IN CANADA
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-17-2002 at 05:23 PM. |
|
11-17-2002, 05:28 PM | #175 | |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas).
Posts: 1,345
|
Quote:
[edit: so there]
__________________
A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun. |
|
11-17-2002, 05:28 PM | #176 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
Quote:
A zygote doesn’t have a head, arms, legs, or any other organ for that mater, it doesn’t think or have aspirations or fears so, in what sense you claim it to be “complete?” “It is nothing but human,” true, so a single human liver cell is “nothing but human.” It just isn’t a human. And here you have the gist of the problem. Uniqueness? In what sense? Genetically? What is the importance of it? What about identical twins? Since one is the genetic copy of the other is it OK to kill one? Uniqueness is preserved. So what uniqueness are you talking about? So what makes a human for you? You have failed to present any concrete, clear concept of it.
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
|
11-17-2002, 05:33 PM | #177 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
11-17-2002, 06:17 PM | #178 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Complete:
a)Having all necessary or normal parts, components, or steps; entire. An embryo is complete in that it has everything it needs to develop fully. As opposed to a sperm or an egg, which are incapable of doing anything on without the other in order to do anything, the embryo lacks no major aspect which it will not produce itself. An unborn baby will continue to live and develop as long as it receives a steady stream of nutrients-Which, I must point out, stays the same after birth. The infant is immature, not incomplete. Human: a)A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens. (applies to the unborn.) b)A person. Person: a)A living human. (Baby is alive and human) b)An individual of specified character. (since the infant is itself, and not someone else, it does have a specefic character. While it is true that this character is not fulley developed, the same thing could be said of a newborn or an adolescent.) Quote:
The baby is (an) individual: Existing as a distinct entity;A single human. As such I believe it deserves the rights we give all individuals.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
|
11-17-2002, 08:09 PM | #179 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
Quote:
You claim a qualitative difference, but it is really more quantitative than qualitative. It is simply a matter of how many steps separates it from humanity and not of being human already. Quote:
Quote:
And if not used in the sense of genetic singularity, nor in the sense of having a personality, uniqueness can only lead to one argument: Potentiality. It has the potentiality of being a unique individual, as opposed as being one. And potentiality is a weak argument, since it exists before the embryo.
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
|||
11-19-2002, 08:57 PM | #180 | |
Bank'ress of Sith
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In a hot-hot place, heh
Posts: 913
|
Quote:
Overview: The word "capital" in "capital punishment" refers to a person's head. In the past, people were often executed by severing their head from their body. From 1976, when executions were resumed, until 2002-JAN-1, there have been 749 executions in the US. About 30 to 60 prisoners are currently killed annually, most by lethal injection. About two out of three executions (65.6%) are conducted in five states: Texas, Virginia, Missouri, Florida and Oklahoma. Texas leads the other states in number of killings (256 killings; 34% of the national total). There were about 3,690 prisoners sentenced to death in 37 state death rows, and 31 being held by the U.S. government and military. 7 About 1.5% are women. The United States is one of the very few industrialized countries in the world which executes criminals. It is one of the few countries in the world which executes mentally ill persons, persons with very low IQ, and child murderers (i.e. persons who were under 18 at the time of their crime). When asked whether they prefer to keep or abolish the death penalty, about 60 to 80% of American adults say that they want to retain capital punishment. Numbers vary depending upon the precise wording of the question asked by the pollsters. When asked whether they would like to see executions continue or have them replaced with a system that guaranteed: life imprisonment with no hope for parole, ever; that the inmate would work in the prison to earn money; that the money would be directed to helping the family of the person(s) that they killed, 55% choose the latter. ~~~~~~~ The Survey Research Unit of Ohio State University's College of Social and Behavioral Sciences published a news release on 1997-OCT-1. It described the opinions of Ohioans towards the death penalty. 2 The results were based on a random sampling of 805 English speaking adults who were interviewed by telephone during mid 1997-SEP. They found: 66% favored the death penalty for convicted murderers; 9% were in favor under certain circumstances; 17% were opposed and 8% were ambivalent. 46% thought it very likely or somewhat likely for an innocent person to be executed; 47% reported somewhat or very unlikely. Adults without a college degree were more likely to believe that an innocent person could be executed than were college graduates by a ratio of 50% to 27% 59% would support an alternative to execution if it involved life in prison without chance of parole and a requirement that the inmate work while in prison with the money going to the victim's family. 31% supported the death penalty in preference to this alternative. An inmate working 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, over a 25 year sentence at $3.00 an hour would generate $150,000 for the family of the victim. Non-college graduates (60%), those under 30 years of age (67%), females (68%), those not married (64%) and African-Americans (70%) were more likely to support this alternative than college graduates (53%), those 30 years old or older (56%), males (49%), those married (55%) and Whites (56%). The margin of error is less than 4% on these data.
__________________
my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think. |
|