The Wheel of Time

[TwirlingString]

The series is really good, the only problem is that they take so long to slog through and afterwards you tend to feel like it took to long for whatever that was supposed to happen to happen.

[Lief Erikson]

Occasionally I do feel it goes a little bit slow in some parts, like when they have something really exciting going on with one or two characters, but it keeps spending tons of time on other, less interesting ones, only returning briefly to the interesting ones. What's happening with Rand to me is always interesting, although all the other characters have their boring moments.

I really love the series though, and the slowness isn't one of the main things that bugs me. The main thing about the whole series that bugs me is how little kindness and compassion are shown between the characters. They fall in love and everything, but they don't show anything really tender. All the characters are constantly snapping at each other, and trying to get their own way, and trying to get ahead of each other. Because of that, I wish that there was a little bit more of the more pleasant behavior between the good guys.

[GRONK!!!]

GRONK thinks the Wheel of Time is a great series but there are so many elements of Wheel of Time that bug him. *caution if you've never read series this can spoil a bit*

1) Some parts are way too descriptive. Ok, theres nothing wrong with describing the main characters and places thoroughly. But Jordan spendS whole pages describing people who will die within a chapter and places that will most likely never be revisited.

2) After reading Dune the Aiel seem sort of like a rip off.

3) Every book Jordan introduces about 20 new recurring characters and vocabulary words. This wasn't a problem back when GRONK read the next book in the series after he read the last, but now its been a year since GRONK read a wheel of Time book. GRONK wants to read the last book in the series Jordan released, but he now he remembers little of the details. GRONKs not sure he has the time to reread about 6000 pages to remember everything in the prior books.

4) The creeping feeling that Jordan will continue to make more and more problems while wrapping up few sub plots. GRONK half expects Jordan to pass away with book 18 which doesnt conclude anything.

5) So many of the female characters have the same personality and thoughts. "Men can be so headstrong and silly. Everyone else is so reckless. Everyone thinks I'm so young and inexperienced but I'll show them my strength."

6) Rand's love square. Cmon... three women? Kinda disturbing. I can't see how Jordans going to settle this without randomly making them stop loving each other like he did with Rand's first love.

All in all GRONK thinks this a great series, but for some parts... argh. Looking forward to Winter's Heart though.

[elendili]

Men can be so headstrong and silly. Everyone else is so reckless.

This is actually true.

Does anyone know when the nexy book after Winter's Heart comes out ?

The whole series is great but the first book moves far too slowly and it tends to randomly ignore charcters for a whole book.

[Lief Erikson]

The release date for the next one, which is called Crossroads of Twilight, is January 7.

Here's a link by which you can get an idea of what it'll be about, advance order it or whatever you want to do:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

[TwirlingString]

Je t'aime

[elendili]

Je t'adore

Do you know when the paperback version is released?

[Lief Erikson]

No, I'm afraid I don't know when the paperback is coming out, if it has a separate time coming than the hardback.

Glad your happy with the link though !

[RosieCotton]

This is such a great series, probably my second favorite.
Crossroads in the Twighlight comes out in a month....here is a link for a review. Don't worry, there aren't any spoilers!

http://www.dragonmount.com/Community...002-12-03.aspx

Sounds great! (Especially the part about Mat : he's always been my favorite )

Rosie

[Lief Erikson]

This is a continuation of a small discussion from another thread, but as it is shifting to the Wheel of Time entirely, I'll post it here for you to read, RosieCotton.

Well, I hope you don't mind my giving my reasons for not wanting to go to The Wheel of Time; I'd be very interested to hear why you would.

1# The bad characters can be awful. It could well be better to commit suicide than to fall into their hands.
2# The good characters can be awful. They aren't generally nice or compassionate towards each other. They become close friends, even fall in love, but I don't know how they manage it. They do nothing but bicker, except the men sometimes are a little better. The women are always fighting, and if they aren't angry on the surface, they're angry in their heads.
3# You're stuck with these good and bad characters. Once you die, you come back again, and there isn't any end to your flow in the Pattern (Unless you get lucky and are hit by balefire ). There's no rest, no final peace for your life.
4# There is no interactive god. This might not be too big of a pain for those people who aren't Christians and don't believe there's any god anyway, but to me it's a pain.


But even with these problems with the series, I still really like it. I don't mind these things in the books; they're simply things that would prevent me from having even the smallest desire to go there in real life.

I find some of the characters very interesting as well. I liked Lanfear a lot (Really didn't like it when she disappeared), I find/found Moiraine very interesting, as well as Rand, Nynaeve and a few others. Siuan Sanche was also good, and Logain.

Most of the characters are pretty similar to each other, and have bad temper problems.

The characters I like least in the whole series (Much less then both good guys and bad guys alike) is the Sea Folk. That is primarily because of how demanding they are of other people and how little they give in return. Ah well. I suppose when you're trying to unite the world, you can't be choosy who you pick for your allies.

I just wonder how Rand is going to get the Seanchan's support; that'll be very interesting to see. And how the Ashaman and Aes Sedai learn to live with each other, and if Mazrim Taim is going to die (I wouldn't be at all displeased if he did; he makes me nervous).

So anyway, I do really like the series a lot. But why would you want to live there?

[RosieCotton]

Very, very good points. You've kept me thinking of how I can work around them.

1. The bad guys are evil, but I don't think they are that much worse than other books. I mean, I don't think that Lafear if any more evil than Sauron.
2. Not all of the characters are pains. Nynave could use anger management couseling and Elayne needs someone to take her nose out of the clouds sometimes, but they aren't bad people.
3. Most people don't know that they are reborn as someone else, or that they led a life in a different age.
4. There is the Creator. There have been referneces of praying to the Creator as people pray to God. (And I am Christian, by the way)

That was tough tough. I stand to my decision though!

Rosie

[Lief Erikson]

Well, that's a pretty good defense . And at least on some of those points, such as your point about evil, you made me think . Well, here goes:

Originally posted by RosieCotton
1. The bad guys are evil, but I don't think they are that much worse than other books. I mean, I don't think that Lafear if any more evil than Sauron.

No, I agree that Lanfear isn't as bad as Sauron. Or Satan for that matter. Satan, Sauron, Shaitan, they all are pretty similar in character and disposition. Good point.

One of the main differences I see in it, I guess, is that in The Wheel of Time, the forces of evil have infiltrated everything, and are influencing everything. They have spies and evildoers in every body of people, and those spies are always willing to stoop to any levels: murder, theft, torture.

Galadriel's forest of Lothlorien wasn't infiltrated by the enemy. Neither was Valinor, or Rivendell. No place that has good at heart is ever permitted to retain evil within it. There was always some place which was pure and above corruption, but in The Wheel of Time, there doesn't seem to be. Thus, to me anyway, the influence of evil seems stronger, and the Creator's motive incomprehensible (To me, anyway).

In Christianity, we believe that there are things like there are in Arda. There are holy things that are pure and which no evil can stand in. When God comes into a person's life, sin cannot stand there anymore. The nature of the person changes, so that evil is no longer at home there, and then it is cast out. God doesn't permit evil in heaven, he doesn't permit it within his servants. When someone with a personal relationship sins, the sin is, sooner or later, brought to that person's eyes and revealed.

The Light doesn't uphold the cause of justice and righteousness here- he lets righteousness and justice fight against evil, and may the strongest and most clever win. Horrible events happen, but without any real, good purpose behind them. God permits evil to happen, but he uses it for good. The Light permits evil to happen, but it doesn't show any point or purpose. Even the Last Battle isn't the end- In the Wheel of Time, remember that it says "In the Wheel of Time, there is no end and no beginning . . .", or words to that effect.

The Light didn't send its son to die for sin, neither does it care enough to bring its servants to final peace. It permits sin to go on, without end, and evil, and permits the good to go on fighting with the bad forever. There is no end or point to the suffering.

2. Not all of the characters are pains. Nynave could use anger management couseling and Elayne needs someone to take her nose out of the clouds sometimes, but they aren't bad people.

Again I agree with you there, they're not bad people. They have their loyalties in line, and they do try to do what's right. But, to me anyway, that doesn't remove the disadvantages of being stuck with people who are so self centered and unkind. I actually can hardly remember one instance where any of them purposely went out of their way to help anyone else, in day to day life. In their overall purpose, they are trying to do what's right, and because of that, I am willing to label them as good guys. It's just that in their normal, outward life, they aren't nice people. I'm not trying to be judgemental of them: it's just that these facts about their ordinary behavior wouldn't make me interested to know them well.

3. Most people don't know that they are reborn as someone else, or that they led a life in a different age.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it ? I actually was given the impression that it was common knowledge, but I could be wrong.

Still, even if people don't know about it, they're still stuck with it. And their not knowing about it doesn't excuse the wrongness of the system.

4. There is the Creator. There have been referneces of praying to the Creator as people pray to God. (And I am Christian, by the way)

There is no personal, interactive relationship with this creator. The world view in The Wheel of Time seems more similar to the world view that some people hold: that God started the world as a clock, and now is simply letting it tick till it runs out of batteries. The clockmaker simply lets it go on its course without influencing events at all. The ideas also draw from the reincarnation things, and other.

I have a personal relationship going with God, and I would never, ever want to exchange him for the kind of God there is in The Wheel of Time (Please don't look upon this as a religious affront; it isn't meant as the kind of ultimatum that says "If you're a true Christian, this is what you'd do" ).

[GRONK!!!]

Hey, no fair, no fair. GRONK proudly killed this thread fair and square two months ago. No bringing it back now. Oh, well... GRONK might as well get into it then.

How is it that characters being evil in itself is a flaw? Evil characters can be fun. Besides, you can't have a Frodo without a Sauron egging him on.

GRONKs never been very religious, nor is he Christian, but GRONK thought the Wheel of Time seemed to have a god. The White Cloaks are obviously a poke at organized religion anyway. And true, the light doesn't seem to directly affect much, but not counting a few stories like Noah's ark god doesn't always directly effect the world either. However, the light did send champions like Rand to help save the world. Rand seems like the obvious Jesus figure anyway.... he is a sheppard. And maybe the light has some master plan for the end. Ah... this isn't GRONK's field of expertise though. GRONK wouldn't mind if there was no religion.

[TwirlingString]

I don't think these bad guys are <i>evil</i> I think that somehow they've managed to fit into the category where they're bloody annoying. I seem to spend most of the scenes with the bad guys going "Be quiet already, i want to see what Rand does"

[Lief Erikson]

GRONK, in Christianity, God is in direct control all the time. I don't know if you've read the Bible or not, but it is packed full of miracles and God's hand at work. So it is for Christians, too. Once a person comes into a personal relationship with God, their eyes are opened to something new, and their lives become packed full of unlikely circumstances, spiritual experience and miracles.

As for The Wheel of Time, I haven't seen any real interaction between the Light and world events. Where did you read that the Light sent Rand?

Originally posted by GRONK!
How is it that characters being evil in itself is a flaw? Evil characters can be fun. Besides, you can't have a Frodo without a Sauron egging him on.

I certainly agree with you there, and I'm not faulting the evil characters in that they're in the books. Without the evil characters, the books would be boring. I was continuing a conversation with RosieCotton as to reasons why we would or wouldn't want to live there.

Originally posted by TwirlingString
I don't think these bad guys are <i>evil</i> I think that somehow they've managed to fit into the category where they're bloody annoying. I seem to spend most of the scenes with the bad guys going "Be quiet already, i want to see what Rand does"

That's probably the case with some of them. I find some of the minor villains, like some of the Black Ajah not particularly interesting, but I always find the Forsaken interesting, and frequently reread the parts that they're in.

However, I completely agree with you about Rand. I always find the stuff in which he's involved to be the most interesting in the books. Around him, things are always happening. With some of the others, like when Elayne, Nynaeve or Egwene are off on a quest or something, I usually find those parts a good deal less interesting.

But the climaxes of the different books never cease to keep me latched, once they start.

[GRONK!!!]

Eh now GRONKs confused. If gods in direct control all the time then doesn't that mean according to all Christians life is predetermined? GRONK thought only some Christians like the Calvinists believed in that.

GRONK thinks it is clear that some power like the pattern/light is in charge of Rand. As Rand's birth and most of his actions had been fortold it stands to reason that something created him and has some control over him. Otherwise, what is it thats leading to all the prophecies coming true? Coincidence?

GRONK agrees that the parts about Rand are generally more interesting then those about most of the females. The parts about Matt are fun too although Matt falls too much into the pattern "I'm not a hero (does something heroic). I dont want to be involved (gets more involved)"

[Lief Erikson]

(Sniggers) I have to agree with you there .

Originally posted by GRONK!
GRONK thinks it is clear that some power like the pattern/light is in charge of Rand. As Rand's birth and most of his actions had been fortold it stands to reason that something created him and has some control over him. Otherwise, what is it thats leading to all the prophecies coming true? Coincidence?

It could be foreknowledge that permits the prophesies, though I think you might be right about the Light using the Dragon Reborn to defeat the Dark One. Things make more sense if you look at it in that light.

Grrr . . . my sister is turning on The Matrix in the background- can't concentrate. I'll get back to you about predestination later .

[Lief Erikson]

Okay, finished watching Matrix, now I'm back .

I don't believe that human beings aren't in control of their own choices. They can choose what they please, and they do choose what they please. If you go and murder someone, you can't blame that having happened on God.

However, if God is the Creator, he is in command of all things. He can use scientific methods to create things, if he wishes, or supernaturally simply make them. If he is in such complete control, it stands to reason that God can still work through people and command circumstances. People's having free will doesn't restrict God, and God's command of events doesn't restrict people's free will. Sometimes his will is their will, and if it isn't their will, then he raises up a person whose will it is to do this.

A frequent misconception by people is that knowledge of the future contradicts free will. Many time travel books nowadays demonstrate the correct solution to that perceived problem. Frequently you have someone observe an event from the future, or see themselves as they will be in the future, or have a prophesy told about them (Such as the Prophesies of the Dragon, in The Wheel of Time), which has to be fulfilled. That doesn't mean that they're being forced to fulfill it; it simply means that they will fulfill it. By their own choice.

In the Wheel of Time, everything that happens is described as a part of the Pattern. The Creator is probably weaving this pattern on The Wheel of Time. He himself isn't stuck inside this Wheel, and he knows what the final pattern will look like. The people inside it don't have any idea whatsoever, except for the clues that he drops here and there. He is in charge of the Pattern, and even while they choose where they go, he is the one who chooses that path as well.



I suppose, Rosie, that I'll just have to drop my argument about God .

[Millane]

i hit this series not that long ago and im loving it... just finished The Great Hunt still a bit confused was Ingtar the darkfriend who came into Fal Dara and shot at Rand but hit the Amyrlin instead and did he play any part in the rescue of Fain from Fal Dara... sorry but i read it on a plane coming home from Hong Kong and it seems a bit hazy
p.s. good to see Gronk still talks about himself in third person

[Lief Erikson]

Ah, Millane, I think I should warn you that on this thread we tend to assume everyone has read all of the books, so our comments are generally spoiler full. Glad you're enjoying the books, though !