08-17-2004, 06:15 PM | #161 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm sorry I hurt you, if I did (I'm really not sure if I did or not - I don't know how to read you sometimes.)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||||||||
08-18-2004, 04:50 PM | #162 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
(ok, guys, it's safe to come out!)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-18-2004, 05:07 PM | #163 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Here's an analogy that might help to express my opinion: Look at a wagon and a fighter jet (say the F-15, my personal favorite). They both are vehicles. They both have wheels. Their most important structural parts are both made primarily out of metal, altho they also contain other materials. Their primary purpose is to move people/things from one place to another. They are similar in many ways. However, the jet contains additional systems that are NOT present on the wagon. And most importantly, the person sitting in the wagon is pulled by another (representing instinct), while the person sitting in the jet is a pilot that, altho somewhat constrained by the mechanics of the jet, can make it fly wherever he wishes. You may not agree with my viewpoint, but do you see what I'm trying to express? IMO, humans, while sharing many characteristics of animals, have additional things in their make-up that make them entirely different creatures. And the most important difference is that humans have free-will to "fly" where they choose, based upon moral evaluations. Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-18-2004 at 05:09 PM. |
|||
08-18-2004, 09:14 PM | #164 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
I want it known that I never said humans are above animals because we have garages. I said we stick out like sore thumbs because of it. Much different.
|
08-18-2004, 09:56 PM | #165 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
08-18-2004, 10:06 PM | #166 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
08-18-2004, 11:11 PM | #167 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
Cleansing Temper Tantrum
Mother and young child...humans and the rest of the planet.... these are apples and oranges. I grew and birthed my son. He is one half me. My husband and I are soley responsible for him being here. Someone has to take care of him or he will die.
Humans did not make the rest of the world...and animal and plant life would for the most part go on fine without us, so I really don't see the correlation. You are saying that we are "above" (translates to "better than" IMO) the rest of the living creatures of this world, and we are supposed to "take care" (hoo boy, and who defines what THAT means! ) of it!? Fairy tales. Sorry! And I still don't buy this whole free will business. Pretty story...but you have no idea if homo sapiens is the only creature possessing the fabulous "free will", since you don't REALLY know what it's like to be another type of animal, a plant, or an insect. The whole free will thing is getting on my nerves. I'm really sick of hearing about it! Of course, I absolutely do not believe the bible account (imo that is just a bunch of old stories created by humans of ancient times, wondering the same things we wonder today. ), or the creation story (no evidence) , or this whole "God gave us this earth so have at it" mentality. (another woman told me that when I mentioned to her that I felt sorry for the fish and wasn't into fishing anymore ) so....I do not agree also. There! I feel better.
__________________
Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-19-2004 at 12:03 AM. |
08-19-2004, 12:43 AM | #168 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
08-19-2004, 03:43 AM | #169 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
|
08-19-2004, 04:24 AM | #170 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Animals adapt themselves to nature. Humans on the other hand adapt nature to our needs. Just as Eärniel says, our buildings and cities usually stand out a lot from the surrounding environment.
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
08-19-2004, 05:42 AM | #171 | |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Quote:
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
|
08-19-2004, 07:41 AM | #172 | |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Quote:
|
|
08-19-2004, 07:46 AM | #173 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
Quote:
......but I think from what WE can see, that it sure looks like humans have something that animals don't, as far as making choices.... Fixed. The mention of "free will" is getting on my nerves because of repetition. Repetition starts to bug me after awhile.
__________________
Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-19-2004 at 09:48 AM. |
|
08-19-2004, 09:49 AM | #174 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
maybe someone should split this off into a 'free will' thread
i have a different take on 'free will'... i don't think we have it per se... i think everything in our universe is ultimately a result of cause and effect... however, and this is a very important however, the causes and effects are so interwoven and complex so that no sentient being could ever hope to understand these causes and effects, and like the tree falling in the forest that no one hears, perception is reality... so if no one can decipher the cause and effect, 'free will' exists... at least as far as we are concerned btw, animals using tools is just one way they adapt nature to their needs... they're just not as good at it as us
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
08-19-2004, 01:38 PM | #175 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
And whats this integrated into the environment talk? We ARE the environment people. Come AWAY form the high minded concept that we are somehow artificial because we can make cars and split atoms and stuff. EVERYTHING we make comes from THE ENVIRONMENT. Your much vaunted garages are made from materials we pulled out of the earth or cut from other living creatures and knocked together to make a little nest we call a garage. Every stone block and steel girder originally came from this earth. We didn’t create them artificially in whole form. EVEN plastics are a manipulation of the natural environment. Just like spider webs. By definition everything is “integrated” into the environment. Lets get away from the idea that everything we do is nothing like what animals do. At best you can say we do exactly what animals do only more so. Quote:
Perspective people perspective…
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-19-2004 at 01:41 PM. |
||
08-19-2004, 02:57 PM | #176 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I think Chesterton's point is a good one (from that long quote) - I think what is unique is that a bird will build a nest, and all nests will look similar for a species, for they build by instinct; but humans will build houses (and whatever else) and make them individual and unique. We have the urge for art for the sake of art, not because it serves some biological purpose that would help us reproduce our species, that I just don't see in animals. That famous line about why people climb mountains, for example, is another example - why do they climb? "Because it's there!". I think that's another example of the way humans are different from animals in a significant way.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-19-2004, 03:04 PM | #177 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
i'd have to repeat myself again and say that, yes humans are very different... but it's a matter of degree... why does a dog fetch the ball? because it's there!
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
08-19-2004, 03:13 PM | #178 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
A silly story, maybe, but I really want to get rid of the idea that this aspect of Christianity is necessarily narcisisstic. It can be if one takes it with the wrong attitude, but taken with the right attitude, it is in NO way narcisisstic. IF it is indeed a fact that God made humans a higher order, and we are told this by the One who created us, then it is NOT narcisisstic to believe it. (and please remember that if anyone is going to criticize a concept, then they must first understand it correctly before the criticism can be valid. IOW, for non-Christians to call this narcisisstic, they must be willing to be corrected by a Christian if the Christian finds an error in their underlying assumption. The same goes for me, of course, if I criticize a non-Christian concept; I'm fully willing, and indeed hope, that a non-Christian would correct me if I have an underlying assumption wrong. Otherwise my criticism would not be valid.)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
08-19-2004, 03:17 PM | #179 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
But the insides are different. The buyers don't make the outsides. Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-19-2004 at 03:19 PM. |
||
08-19-2004, 03:25 PM | #180 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
as far as the 'ceiling' goes, time will tell if nothing else
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Awesome Animal News! | Lotesse | General Messages | 152 | 06-24-2009 08:25 PM |
YayGollum's Many As Well As Achingly Unique Tales Of Middle Earth Outcasts! | YayGollum | Writer's Workshop | 29 | 08-16-2007 08:28 PM |
Theological Opinions , PART II | jerseydevil | General Messages | 993 | 03-22-2007 05:19 AM |
Why you believe what you believe I | Rían | General Messages | 1173 | 02-01-2005 03:56 PM |
Animal Rights/Dissection Debate | Ragnarok | General Messages | 39 | 08-16-2004 09:37 PM |