10-18-2003, 01:20 AM | #161 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I think there has to be a balance between military and diplomacy. I feel we ran out of diplomacy with Hussein. We use diplomacy with Iran and we are forced to with North Korea and other countries. But sometimes - it's a time to say - diplomacy is not going to work and it's time to take action. Okay - you posted somethings in the post above that may make some of my points mute. Anyway - I do think that the war in Iraq was worth it - and it will be proved to have been worth it in the future. Even Churchill was hated before World War II because the world did not share his fear of Hitler. Today we know he was right all along and if the world listened to him - millions upon millions of people could have been saved and a great war would have been avoided.
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10-18-2003, 01:32 AM | #162 | |
Enting
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I'm afraid I may have to end this conversation tonight, it is getting late, and I am starting to get overly sentimental, as I am bound to do this time of night. I also have an 8:30 grammar class...
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10-18-2003, 06:25 AM | #163 | ||||
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10-18-2003, 06:27 AM | #164 | |
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10-18-2003, 06:27 AM | #165 | ||||
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I wouldn't say I'm 'naive', because I knew about the terror bombs since I was born, in the first 'Intifada' (the name of these wars [israel vs. palestines] in arabic.). Then how would you define an 'evil man'? Simply, a man who acts evilly. They (the terrorists) are also desperate and frustrated, of course. Because they are poor - and they are poor because of the war they started. They are also desperate because many people were killed - and that's understandable. And yet they can't look for revenge. They started this situation, and they are the only ones who can stop it. If they would be patiente, and with less urge to revenge the deaths of the terrorists. Quote:
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10-18-2003, 06:36 AM | #166 | |||
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 10-18-2003 at 06:38 AM. |
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10-18-2003, 07:32 AM | #167 | ||
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Quite simply, I do not believe there are such things as "evil" men. Call that naive or overly idealistic, but I do not believe in "evil." I believe that the light of god [and this is purposely uncapitalized] exists in everyone, and that everyone, no matter how terrible their actions, has some good in them. Quote:
I would like to say, however, that innocent peple have been killed on both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides of this conflict, and that I find it despicable when Israelis claim to be the innocent victims. As you stated, there is very little innocence left in the region. I would like to state for the record that I do not take sides in this conflict. I am neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim, and I refuse to side in Religious wars. I simply try to look at all sides, for I am sure that the truth (and the answers) is somewhere between the rhetoric of both sides.
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10-18-2003, 07:57 AM | #168 |
im quite stupid
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Whats America got to do with Muslims
The answer is quite simply not a lot. JD please remove your head from your ass and acctually look at what a thread is about before going off on one! Everyone else stop egging him on
We seem to be unable to disconnect the word Muslim with these words Terrorist, Palestine, Middle East. All valaid points but im sure a whole religion/race does not want to be judged upon the actions of a tiny minority! I mean i dont want to be judge by any relgion because i hate them all equally (well buddism not so much a relgion just a way to live your life so thats allright) but i wouldnt like to be judge by the white man because the white man has done some truely terriable things. Admitally the middle east is where in my opinion the old and the new world come together so theres allways gonna be problems. But we have allways had this problem havent we. As people have said we had it in Hittlers day a whole race after the first war was so poverty stricken and helpless it allowed racism to enter in and give people an easy option. Its happened through out history, the crusuades (same bloody part of the world as well)! How did these conflicts get reslved of old? A long and bloody war everytime there must be a better way to solve our problems? But whats happening now i think is getting bad and i think can only get worse Is there any wonder though with all this connection of Muslims with bad and problems that they dont care for us much. No matter who started it (oh its like the whole Elves and Dwarves thing ) one side need to be the bigger person and get over it for the sake of all.
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10-18-2003, 08:10 AM | #169 | |
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10-18-2003, 08:11 AM | #170 | |
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10-18-2003, 08:16 AM | #171 |
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Some recent posts discussing whether terrorists are "evil" miss the point. No matter how far someone falls, they retain the capacity to do good - and no matter how high someone rises, they still retain the capacity to do evil. Evil and good are best used to define someone's actions, rather than the person themselves. What is more accurate, I think is that many involved in the conflict in the Middle East are consumed by hatred - and they act out of hatred. It has some to do with their respective religions, some with race, much over the simple issue of land possession.
In the Israeli-Palestinian arena, there IS much hatred and wrong on BOTH sides. However, I'm more sympathetic to the Israelis. The occupied territories were occupied in a war they won (when attacked). It became necessary to retain those territories as a buffer zone because other Arab states and / or terrorist groups (and the lines here are often blurred or overlapping) used border areas to lob in mortar shells, etc. More recently, they've made concessions and have tried to move the peace process forward - and appease the Palestinians with land (read Kiplings' "The Danegeld" - it's a short poem) - but all they get is a wave of suicide bombings which as a nation, they must stop in order to protect their people. Sometimes they get out of line in doing that, but they show some restraint as well. Islam as a whole has some serious internal problems to deal with if it wants to be taken seriously in our world for much longer. It needs to unequivocally reject all terrorism. It must stop preaching and teaching hatred for non-Muslims in ANY of its mosques and schools - or sanction those who do so. It must stop raising money for terrorist organizations - or to "reward" families of suicide / homicide bombers - which they call martyrs. And look how fundamentalist Islam has redefined the very word "martyr". In the Christian sense, a martyr submits to death at the hands of his enemies, for love of the very ones who take his life. In today's Muslim viewpoint, a martyr is one who decides and acts to take his own life and bring some enemies along with him, out of hatred for those he kills. What a reversal! I too will depart from this thread... for a couple reasons. First, I don't know if it's really taking us anywhere. It strikes me as two neighbors who keep turning up their own stereos to be able to hear what they're playing and not have to hear what the neighbor is playing (also analogous to many of the arguments actually going on IN the Middle East). The second is, I just can't devote the time to posting on this thread that some of you do - and therefore can't keep up with the overwhelming amount of material. Not why I joined the Moot anyway! On the other hand, Jerseydevil made some comments in his last response to me that I feel I need to address. As SGH indicated, we were getting off-topic - so I will transfer that discussion to the "offshoot of religion" (or however exactly it's entitled - would that be the appropriate place SGH?) - but LATER... right now I'm managing a sleepless 1-year-old to placate my sleep-deprived wife. Meanwhile, if anyone else needs something lighter, check out the song I wrote under the LOTR books forum. Think I'll spend more time in the Tolkien section... "the play in the valley is a bit rough for me" (paraphrase) Last edited by Valandil : 10-18-2003 at 08:55 AM. |
10-18-2003, 08:23 AM | #172 | |
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10-18-2003, 08:28 AM | #173 |
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To clarify, the majority MUST exert some control over that minority - from WITHIN Islam - or at least outright reject what they preach. But in Islam, the majority is hesitant to do so. It has to be from within - because the rest of us can't do that from without. THAT'S what I was saying.
Last edited by Valandil : 10-18-2003 at 08:40 AM. |
10-18-2003, 08:34 AM | #174 | |
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10-18-2003, 10:04 AM | #175 | |
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As for Islam it would be good to see some activity from there officials (do they have a pope kinda guy?) to say no this isnt on! But i have little hope this would happen/work
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10-18-2003, 11:22 AM | #176 | ||||||
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I've never said Sharon is pure; but it doesn't connect to this conflict. That's not the reason palestinians suicide. Quote:
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But many islamic countries do support the palestinians - Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.. Quote:
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10-18-2003, 12:17 PM | #177 | |
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In school now all the teachers are saying that Jihad is not a holy war and has nothing to with war...im like ...what???? All things you listed have to do wtih war, etc. I forget what a teachers have said it is, but it was not that. If they want to teach us about Islam, they should reall do it instead of making up stuff. Why do all these religious fanatics seem to be a majority in the Arab world?
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10-18-2003, 12:32 PM | #178 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Re: Whats America got to do with Muslims
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[edit] To answer your question in your heading - as for going off on the American versus the world - that was brought about because your fellow Europeans didn't like a comment I made here or there to back up a point I made.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-18-2003 at 12:53 PM. |
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10-18-2003, 12:50 PM | #179 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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You said HItler had a large army in you previous post. How do you know? I woudl say only that Hitler had a CONVENTIONAL army. I think the problem is - Eurpeans and a lot of the rest of the world - don't want to look at the war against terror as a war - beause it's not conventional. It's not like the wars before. It's not country against country. The terrorists are in the dark - they're in England, they're in America, they're in Australia. They're not ONLY in the Middle East. They just don't use the tanks and guns of a "normal" army. They don't have a country. They are fighting for an idea and belief, which is that anyone who does NOT follow true Islam - deserves death. This to me is NO different than Hitler during WWII. Also - Falagar - of course there are many leaders who condemn the attacks. But A LOT of them have been heard to condemn the attacks in English - only to support them in Arabic. If people are right and only the minority support terrorism - then as Valandil said - the majority needs to STAND UP and put down the MINORITY. Sorry - but this is NOT happening. You say they want peace - well where are they?
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10-18-2003, 12:58 PM | #180 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I guess Europe should have just laid down their arms during World War II.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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