06-11-2002, 11:01 PM | #161 |
Elf Lord
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Gee, you could say the same thing about morgoth and sauron.
It relates back to Feanor anyway. Being "corrupted" doesn't absolve someone of responsibility for their actions.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
06-12-2002, 12:55 AM | #162 | |
the Shrike
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And just to reiterate, NO I do not think that Feanor is a villain. A corrupted evil bugger maybe, but not a villain. It's not like he had any world domination plans... really.
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06-13-2002, 01:36 AM | #163 |
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I would agree with corrupted bugger, but I would take the evil out. Evil implies villain.
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06-13-2002, 02:36 AM | #164 | ||
the Shrike
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Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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06-13-2002, 02:38 AM | #165 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Okay, second definition then. Reminds me of studying for the SAT's
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
08-02-2002, 03:39 PM | #166 |
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I never liked Feanor as a character but I wouldn't call him evil. I think he's extremely corrupted, homicidally insane, overly prideful, and a general nusiance to everybody around him. But if he had repented I think the valar would have forgiven him. He was not evil to the point of being irredeemable, however, it would have taken a long time before he had completely atoned for all the bad things he did. As for the oath he and his sons swore. He might not have had the power to release them from it. But he could have made them swear a stronger oath to repent of their previous oath. Then they would have had to break the first one in order to avoid being oath breakers. That idea probably makes about as much sense as adopting a cat in order to keep other cats out of the garden does, but it's sort of feasible.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
08-03-2002, 02:45 AM | #167 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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08-03-2002, 11:02 AM | #168 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Feanor was not evil. Feanor was obssessed.
From the Peoples of Middle-earth: Quote:
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08-04-2002, 12:54 AM | #169 |
Enting
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Feanor was not evil, but his pride destroyed him and many of the Nolder.
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08-04-2002, 02:22 AM | #170 |
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One may be evil and obsessed at the same time. The spirit of Faenor was in fact so evil that Manwe withheld his judgement of the man after his death and passed on his grave case to the One. Faenor was a corrupt person, spiritually. There's no two ways about it. He was not always so, but noone is.
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08-04-2002, 11:14 AM | #171 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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From the Peoples of Middle-earth:
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08-05-2002, 01:27 PM | #172 |
Elf Lord
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Sigh.
If my mommy died on me, some evil bastard stole my toys and whacked my dad and I resolved to quest until I got some justice it's one thing. If I then however use my skills to trick and pervert people into helping me, because of my own selfish ends, and for spite, then that approaches evil. If I maroon the malcontents, putting them at risk, and perhaps even hoping they will die, that's evil. If I then bequeth my sins to my children, and allow them no absolution, that's pretty hideous. I don't care what the arguments for extenuating circumstances are, both his actions and his motivations fall under the heading of evil.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
08-05-2002, 01:39 PM | #173 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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I think prideful, warped, and misguided are more fiting then evil.
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08-05-2002, 03:36 PM | #174 |
Elf Lord
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That just tells us how he is.
Unfortunately, it tells us nothing about his actions. His actions are what count. I could kill you all out of love, but does that matter one whit?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
08-08-2002, 07:02 PM | #175 |
Elf Lord
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Thank you, Xandre.
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08-10-2002, 01:52 PM | #176 |
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I would say that Feanor was proud, greedy, and selfish, all characteristics which caused his ultimate corruption.
You could blame Morgoth for attacking the trees and destroying their light, but he didn't stop Feanor from surrendering the silmarils to Yavanna to heal the trees. That was purely Feanor's own decision. He placed love of objects above love of people. there is also the factor the Feanor never trusted Morgoth, but was still influenced sufficiently by his lies that his actions were, to an extent based on those lies. I would say that while influcenced by Morgoth, Feanor was ultimately responsible for his own downfall, and to a large extent the downfall of the Noldor. |
08-16-2002, 10:10 AM | #177 |
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Urksnik the Sleek posted:
"I would say that Feanor was proud, greedy, and selfish, all characteristics which caused his ultimate corruption. You could blame Morgoth for attacking the trees and destroying their light, but he didn't stop Feanor from surrendering the silmarils to Yavanna to heal the trees. That was purely Feanor's own decision. He placed love of objects above love of people. there is also the factor the Feanor never trusted Morgoth, but was still influenced sufficiently by his lies that his actions were, to an extent based on those lies. I would say that while influcenced by Morgoth, Feanor was ultimately responsible for his own downfall, and to a large extent the downfall of the Noldor." Very well stated; I couldn't agree more. I think Melkor and Feanor were much more alike in character than either would care to admit. Both wanted to be their "father's" one-and-only. Both put their own selfish wants and needs before that of the greater good. And both were ultimately undone by their deeds.
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08-17-2002, 12:03 AM | #178 | ||
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the Sim:
Quote:
Quote:
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I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris |
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08-17-2002, 12:33 AM | #179 |
Elf Lord
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Just because he never took counsel (but where did he learn to forge swords one wonders) doesn't mean he didn't fall whole heartedly into being manipulated.
Besides. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions were quite plainly evil on several occasions.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
08-17-2002, 03:28 AM | #180 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Selfish and prideful, perhaps. Certainly leading to ill. But evil?
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