The death sentence.

[Nurvingiel]

Taube made a good point here:

"When a man kills, and especially when he kills 170 people, there is no equivalent. It serves no one for the state and the criminal to outbid each other over death."

Scientific studies show the death penalty is not a deterrant for murderers. That's something I mentioned before.

BTW, my comment about the EU was that members of it probably don't care about Russia and Yugoslavia (though they should). They do care about the US because if you abolished the death penalty, you would lend huge weight to their campaign, and people are trying to influence the support of the death penalty by the citizens. (Which is at 60% according to this article.)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel

Scientific studies show the death penalty is not a deterrant for murderers. That's something I mentioned before.

It's not necessarily supposed to. it's to make sure they can NEVER do anything like that again. They have no chance of escape, they have no chance of parol, the have no chance of a media circus after they are dead. Too bad California didn't have the death penalty for Charles Mason - we constanty have to deal with the media circus revolving around him, with constant reminders.

They do care about the US because if you abolished the death penalty, you would lend huge weight to their campaign, and people are trying to influence the support of the death penalty by the citizens. (Which is at 60% according to this article.)

Why does the EU need the US to lend credence to their beliefs? Is the EU so weak they can't have any inlfuence on other countries without the US help? That's what I love - the arguement for the US going with the EU is always that Europe needs the US support in order for THEM to have any legitimacy.

The article is old and the latest support I think was 70%.

[The Gaffer]

I would see the two arguments against the death penalty:
1) It's fundamentally immoral and barbaric for the state to kill.
2) The justice system is imperfect and would lead to innocent people being put to death at some point.

Does anyone know of a justice system which IS perfect? Or is it OK to kill the odd innocent person as long as a bunch of killers are unable to kill again?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Does anyone know of a justice system which IS perfect? Or is it OK to kill the odd innocent person as long as a bunch of killers are unable to kill again?

In NJ the death penalty is only issued by a grand jury and it must be a unanimous decision. There is also DNA testing and other modern forensics which makes it much less likely that an innocent person will be put to death. Not every case is a death penalty case and through appeals it makes it even more difficult.

Crimes Punishable by the Death Penalty

Alabama. Intentional murder with 18 aggravating factors (13A-5-40(a)(1)-(18)).

Arizona. First-degree murder accompanied by at least 1 of 10 aggravating factors (A.R.S 13-703(F)).

Arkansas. Capital murder (Ark. Code Ann. 5-10-101) with a finding of at least 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances; treason.

California. First-degree murder with special circumstances; train wrecking; treason; perjury causing execution.

Colorado. First-degree murder with at least 1 of 15 aggravating factors; treason.

Connecticut. Capital felony with 8 forms of aggravated homicide (C.G.S. 53a-54b).

Delaware. First-degree murder with aggravating circumstances.

Florida. First-degree murder; felony murder; capital drug trafficking; capital sexual battery.

Georgia. Murder; kidnaping with bodily injury or ransom when the victim dies; aircraft hijacking; treason.

Idaho. First-degree murder with aggravating factors; aggravated kidnaping.

Illinois. First-degree murder with 1 of 15 aggravating circumstances.

Indiana. Murder with 16 aggravating circumstances (IC 35-50-2-9).

Kansas. Capital murder with 7 aggravating circumstances (KSA 21-3439).

Kentucky. Murder with aggravating factors; kidnaping with aggravating factors (KRS 532.025).

Louisiana. First-degree murder; aggravated rape of victim under age 12; treason (La. R.S. 14:30, 14:42, and 14:113).

Maryland. First-degree murder, either premeditated or during the commission of a felony, provided that certain death eligibility requirements are satisfied.

Mississippi. Capital murder (97-3-19(2) MCA); aircraft piracy (97-25-55(1) MCA).

Missouri. First-degree murder (565.020 RSMO 1994).

Montana. Capital murder with 1 of 9 aggravating circumstances (46-18-303 MCA); capital sexual assault (45-5-503 MCA).

Nebraska. First-degree murder with a finding of at least 1 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstance.

Nevada. First-degree murder with at least 1 of 14 aggravating circumstances (NRS 200.030, 200.033, 200.035).

New Hampshire. Six categories of capital murder (RSA 630:1, RSA 630:5).

New Jersey. Knowing/purposeful murder by one's own conduct; contract murder; solicitation by command or threat in furtherance of a narcotics conspiracy (NJSA 2C:11-3C).

New Mexico. First-degree murder with at least 1 of 7 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstances (Section 30-2-1 A, NMSA).

New York. First-degree murder with 1 of 12 aggravating factors.

North Carolina. First-degree murder (NCGS §14-17).

Ohio. Aggravated murder with at least 1 of 9 aggravating circumstances (O.R.C. secs. 2903.01, 2929.02, and 2929.04).

Oklahoma. First-degree murder in conjunction with a finding of at least 1 of 8 statutorily defined aggravating circumstances.

Oregon. Aggravated murder (ORS 163.095).

Pennsylvania. First-degree murder with 18 aggravating circumstances.

South Carolina. Murder with 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances (§ 16-3-20(C)(a)).

South Dakota. First-degree murder with 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances; aggravated kidnaping.

Tennessee. First-degree murder with 1 of 14 aggravating circumstances.

Texas. Criminal homicide with 1 of 8 aggravating circumstances (TX Penal Code 19.03).

Utah. Aggravated murder (76-5-202, Utah Code annotated).

Virginia. First-degree murder with 1 of 12 aggravating circumstances (VA Code
§ 18.2-31).

Washington. Aggravated first-degree murder.

Wyoming. First-degree murder.

I also find it funny how with the European opinion of Bush in those articles that in actuality the death sentence has been falling including the number of inmates on death row - although neither the president nor a state governor has anything to do with the number of death row inmates.





DEFENDANTS SENTENCED TO DEATH, 1977 to 2002 by State and Region

[The Gaffer]

So, do you think that an innocent person could never be put to death in New Jersey?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
So, do you think that an innocent person could never be put to death in New Jersey?

No - anything is possible. I just think the chances are slim and not large enough to outlaw the death penalty.

[The Gaffer]

Genuinely, thanks for your honesty. Not an easy thing to admit.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Genuinely, thanks for your honesty. Not an easy thing to admit.

Why - it's easy to admit it. It just doesn't change my opinion of the death penalty.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I would see the two arguments against the death penalty:
1) It's fundamentally immoral and barbaric for the state to kill.
2) The justice system is imperfect and would lead to innocent people being put to death at some point.

Does anyone know of a justice system which IS perfect? Or is it OK to kill the odd innocent person as long as a bunch of killers are unable to kill again?

I agree with the first point about barbarism. However, if you don't mind, could you put up a list of the innocent people that have been executed in the US over the past 20 years? It would make your last point stronger. You lost me on that one, since you used the word "would" instead of "could". "Would" implies probability, where "could" implies possibility.

[The Gaffer]

I can't do that, Ruinel, because I don't know of any. I'm not having a go at the US here. Hell, what do I care whether the US executes people or not? However, I can point to numerous British cases where the defendants were fitted up by the police and would have been dead if we'd had the death penalty (Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, to name but ten).

However, there's also the fact that you never really know 100% when someone's innocent or guilty. It's logically impossible. You might reckon 99.999999%, but still.

That's my point: no system is perfect, you can never know the truth, so mistakes will be made.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I can't do that, Ruinel, because I don't know of any. I'm not having a go at the US here. Hell, what do I care whether the US executes people or not? However, I can point to numerous British cases where the defendants were fitted up by the police and would have been dead if we'd had the death penalty (Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, to name but ten).

I think Valindil mentioned a good two dozen in Illinois in the other thread as well. If people think we arent killing innocent people then they are living in a dream world. What it really comes down to is oh these people are scum bags anyway (many HAVE been in jail for numerous other crimes before their capital offense) so its OK to kill them cause they arent lilly white innocent to begin with. But it still comes down to is it ok to kill an innocent person or is it not ok.

That's my point: no system is perfect, you can never know the truth, so mistakes will be made. [/B]

right. the question is do you accept those mistakes or do you find them unnaceptable.

[Rían]

I agree with JD - "I just think the chances are slim and not large enough to outlaw the death penalty". There are a tremendous amount of things that have to be passed to actually get to the death penalty - appeals, etc. etc.

I think it's also a case of a society making a statement on the value of a human life - IOW, a society saying that a human life is SO valuable that when another human intentionally, maliciously, and selfishly plans to kill another person, then the STATE has the right to require their life, after LOTS and LOTS of careful analysis. And the execution is neither malicious nor selfish.

BTW, Gaffer, does the UK still have the postpartum depression exemption for when moms kill their infants? It's not first-degree murder, IIRC. A sad but interesting situation ... I don't think the US has it, and post-partum depression is rare, but real, IMO. Whew! Life is complex. I gotta go make some tuna and pickle sandwiches and run off to the kid's school and think about simpler things for awhile - ta!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I can't do that, Ruinel, because I don't know of any. I'm not having a go at the US here. Hell, what do I care whether the US executes people or not? However, I can point to numerous British cases where the defendants were fitted up by the police and would have been dead if we'd had the death penalty (Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, to name but ten).

However, there's also the fact that you never really know 100% when someone's innocent or guilty. It's logically impossible. You might reckon 99.999999%, but still.

That's my point: no system is perfect, you can never know the truth, so mistakes will be made.

You misunderstand. I'm not accusing you of 'having a go at the US'. I was only asking about the numbers in the US because I know our justice system here. I also know that the death penalty is not an option in Britain, which is why I didn't ask for statistics there.

IR said Val put something up, but I couldn't find it. And I didn't see any links to official sites or anything. I was hoping someone would be able to put that information up, if they could find it. Otherwise, I can't really agree with the second point made by Gaffer, even if I do agree with the first.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...I think it's also a case of a society making a statement on the value of a human life - IOW, a society saying that a human life is SO valuable that when another human intentionally, maliciously, and selfishly plans to kill another person, then the STATE has the right to require their life, after LOTS and LOTS of careful analysis. And the execution is neither malicious nor selfish....

Good point, Rian. Not the position I would expect from you, though, since I know your stance on biblical things... and there is a commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

[Lalaith_Elf]

I don't really know where I stand on this. Maybe the death penalty is right for a mass murderer, but really it's not right for people to 'play god' even if it is to deal out justice.
Maybe some people do deserve it. You know 'a life for a life', and that sort of thing.
I think it all depends on what they do, and if there is clear evidence against them.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think it's also a case of a society making a statement on the value of a human life

if they are making a statement they are saying its ok to kill people. is that the statement you want to make? personally I think we shouldnt be using deaths to make any points. if you are going to have capital punishment it should be for other reasons. we can argue about the deterent factor and to eliminate them from society but to make a statement??

[Lalaith_Elf]

As an example: What if they wanted to execute Saddam Hussein? Would you still object to the death penalty, even though he's tortured and killed so many people?

[Ruinel]

Do you think it is acceptable to put someone who is a serial rapist/murderer in the same prison as someone who robbed someone at gun point?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith_Elf
As an example: What if they wanted to execute Saddam Hussein? Would you still object to the death penalty, even though he's tortured and killed so many people?

Who is "they"? Do you mean the Iraqi people? How would my objection, or IR's objection amount to a hill of beans if the Iraqi judicial system found him guilty and sentenced him to death? I don't see your point on this. Could you clarify your question?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Good point, Rian. Not the position I would expect from you, though, since I know your stance on biblical things... and there is a commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Ruinel,

Some Christians favor the death penalty. The best translation (as I understand it) of the original text to 'Thou shalt not kill' is 'You shall not commit murder'. So it's generally not taken as a prohibition against either killing in war or execution of criminals (because God also commanded those very same Israelites to do both of the latter). Christians today still debate the propriety of serving as a soldier - and capital punishment... so there isn't one definitive 'Christian' viewpoint on either of those - there's room for both viewpoints.

I myself have flip-flopped on capital punishment a few times in my life. My family was pretty conservative, so I grew up in favor. Later, out of compassion, I would spare lives. Then, don't know if I got jaded (there IS so much evil out there!) - but I became more 'in favor' again. More recently, with some things that happened in Illinois, and what we continually hear about statistics regarding capital punishment - I have taken the opposition viewpoint again, as a matter of 'social justice'

My posts IR mentioned were probably in the 2nd or 3rd page of the thread about the mechanic who killed the girl in Florida. I'll verify the page and edit my post if necessary... or maybe I can figure out how to post a 'link' (Oooooooh! ) to them.

(EDIT: just checked - it was page 4 - and there were at least 3 of them so I didn't bother figuring out how to do the 'linkee thingee' )