Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Millane]

I think that Christianity is a real thinking religion, and it's a shame when people don't bother to think things through. You've probably seen a few of my posts and Lief's posts - do you think we're mindlessly obeying a set of rules, or do you see us using our brains and thinking things through?

hahaha no i wasnt referring to anyone here though it did probably sound that way sorry ... i was generalising to some degree and i cant say that every Christian is just mindlessly obeying a set of rules, i just think that in a lot of cases we can make up our own mind and choose what we believe to be right and live better for that, as opposed to be living a depressed life because we dont want to 'sin'... to put it into context a homosexual grows up outside the constraints of Christianity and finds a man and lives a happy, healthy life, as opposed to a homosexual who decides to put his faith before his sexuality and ends up having a poor, depressed life.

However, both of us (Lief, correct me if I'm wrong about you ) accept the standard that we see in the Bible (as expressed in the New Testament, which is the standard that applies to Christians), and choose to do our best to follow it, because we have used our heads and thought it through and believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the truth.

well i guess there are the Christians that live by God's word because it is the 'right' thing to do for us to get into heaven, and those that if they found out God didnt exist would probably still live by the bible because those particular morals seem to be the good life. Now i have no problem with the second of these, but the first i think is a very poor waste of life.

There are some areas that are not currently popular culturally, such as the statement that sex belongs in a marriage between a man and a woman, but "popularity" doesn't matter, because it makes sense to assume that the Creator that made us in the first place knows how we best operate. IOW, a car manufacturer usually includes an instruction manual with the new car that you buy, and any "don't" rules are for the good of the machine (like please don't inflate the tires over a certain psi, or don't put anything besides a certain type of gasoline in the tank); the Bible, among other things, is an instruction manual for how people run best, written by the Creator of people, and the "don't" rules are for the good of the person.

yeah well thats sorta contradictory to what you are trying to say because we CAN look after ourselves and we arent mindless like a car... i feel completely able to live a good, healthy life without the help of the Bible or God.

Now some people seem to want to "pick and choose" those items in the Bible which they want to obey; however, this is because, IMO, they don't really believe in the God of the Bible, because this is really just saying that they know better than God, isn't it? And that certainly isn't the Biblical image of God!

hmm i would think that someone who 'picks and chooses' like that, wouldnt believe in God just agree with certain morals and disagree with others, and i wouldnt find anything wrong with that, except in the case they were claiming to be a Christian...

Now I believe you're an agnostic or athiest, is that right? And it looks like you're a fan of MM. Then your standard probably comes from basically what is currently thought to be right or wrong in that particular sub-culture. (And this implies that there is no absolute truth, BTW. Do you believe that?) We ALL have standards; what differs is where we get them from.

hmmm now my thoughts get very confused and overlap here and there so ill try and make it as intelligible as i can. Yes i am an atheist and a fan of MM, i wouldnt put my standard just down to MM or my belief that God doesnt exist, ive been influenced by many things and each has a little imput into how i live (this would include Christianity aswell no doubt)... No absolute truth? (ill refer to Plato because it will be easier to explain) well its hard for to explain my views because i agree with Plato's Forms in my head as concepts yet i dont agree that we can ever have absolute truth apart from what we experiance in our life (IOW i dont believe our souls have experianced any transcendental reality before or after we die, hence we've never been around the forms) and so basically no i dont think we can ever have absolute truth...

It is consistent with reason, IMO, to do it, as long as it doesn't go flat against any of his other teachings in a harmful way.

fair enough but that doesnt account for your own views and values but trusts entirely in someone else who could easily decieve you this one time and that would be it...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
wow! you are NAUGHTY! My 'sin' doesn't hurt anyone or deprive them.

I said I'm NOT tempted to steal!

And what 'sin' are you talking about that doesn't hurt anyone or deprive them?

[Millane]

all of this judging of homosexuality is so wrong in my opinion it isnt as if it is our business because i see no difference in a heterosexual relationship and a homosexual relationship and it is insulting to judge either one of them...

God didnt "make" anyone homosexual, it is someones choice if they choose to be homosexual, God doesnt "make" things(sometimes) happen to you, he "LETS" things happen to you. It is the parents fault for beating or murdering one of thier own because of bieng homosexual and they will answer for it in due time,but, it is the person who's homosexual fault for bieng tempted to sin, just as incest and gluttony are sins. CONDEMNED TO H*LL.

hahahahaha you know i laugh in the face of religions that try to scare us into buying there stories. I think that if you are to the point where you cant spell hell properly (through fear unless im mistaken) the religion has got such a hold on you that you dont live for yourself but for the religion, and you accept everything they say without question, even things that are no concern of ours like if someones homosexual....
unfairly beat the homosexual issue to death (God forbid MM question Christianity )

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I differ with you a bit here, hectorb, in that I don't believe it's a sin to be tempted - just the actual choice to engage in homosexual behavior is the sin. I'm tempted by my own particular set of sinful behaviors - it's when I choose to give in to them that I sin, IMO.

I think that homosexual tendencies are just another manifestation of our sin nature, like tendencies to lie or steal or bully, or incest or gluttony, to use your examples. For me, that particular manifestation is NOT a temptation, and a person with homosexual tendencies may not be tempted in ways that I am. We're all different. But as Ruinel said, and I agree, we ALL sin (altho she doesn't believe homosexual behavior to be a sin).

I agree...being tempted is not a sin but following through on the temptation is. I think that the whole homosexuality thing is most definitly a result of our imperfect nature...

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
No i do not believe homosexuality is a sin. and even if i bought into the whole concept of "sinning" i would no more think that homosexuals are sinners any more then heterosexuals are. Who is worse in gods eyes? a homosexual who is monogomous and loving or a heterosexual who has sex with every girl he meets and cheats on his wife?

they are both wrong...how God judges them depends on the sin they have committed...God states that homosexual behavior is wrong and He aslo states that adultery and fornication are wrong also...they are all sexual sins so I believe they all fall in the same boat so to speak....again, I'm Catholic, so I believe that not all sins are equal...the Church teaches that adultery, fornication and homosexual ACTS (not being homosexual) are mortal sins...resulting in a total loss of heaven unless you repent

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
No i do not believe homosexuality is a sin. and even if i bought into the whole concept of "sinning" i would no more think that homosexuals are sinners any more then heterosexuals are. Who is worse in gods eyes? a homosexual who is monogomous and loving or a heterosexual who has sex with every girl he meets and cheats on his wife?

they are both wrong...how God judges them depends on the sin they have committed...God states that homosexual behavior is wrong and He aslo states that adultery and fornication are wrong also...they are all sexual sins so I believe they all fall in the same boat so to speak....again, I'm Catholic, so I believe that not all sins are equal...the Church teaches that adultery, fornication and homosexual ACTS (not being homosexual) are mortal sins...resulting in a total loss of heaven unless you

[hectorberlioz]

Ah, but why be homosexual and NOT engage in the sin? its like someone saying "im a movie director, but i have never directed movies"

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I said I'm NOT tempted to steal!

OOPS! Forgive me, I was tired when I read your original post.

And what 'sin' are you talking about that doesn't hurt anyone or deprive them?

I'll couple this with Arien's quote...

the Church teaches that ...fornication ... are mortal sins...resulting in a total loss of heaven unless you repent

Then, if there is a hell, I'm going to hell in a handbasket then. And NO, if I suddenly went back to believing there was a god, I would not repenting what I don't feel sorry for.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
they are both wrong...how God judges them depends on the sin they have committed...God states that homosexual behavior is wrong and He aslo states that adultery and fornication are wrong also...they are all sexual sins so I believe they all fall in the same boat so to speak....again, I'm Catholic, so I believe that not all sins are equal...the Church teaches that adultery, fornication and homosexual ACTS (not being homosexual) are mortal sins...resulting in a total loss of heaven unless you

so you are telling me that according to the laws of christianity raping and murdering and eating someone is exactly as bad as kissing someone of the same sex in a passionate sexual way? Thats simply laughable to me. Of course there are degrees of "sin". And i know you feel that too. You cant tell me you see those two acts I just named as equally evil to you. Can you? Is the friendly warm happy healthy monogomous homosexual equal in your eyes to the conciousless raper killer?

[hectorberlioz]

YES! they've both sinned sexually(have you not read the passages i've posted?) rape and homosexuality are equal sins in gods(and mine and whoever else agrees) eyes and he warned against both. Laugh all you freaking want.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Ah, but why be homosexual and NOT engage in the sin?

because they have been brain washed by society to think its wrong and/or are trying to deny their sexual persuasion? you hear about that every day.

its like someone saying "im a movie director, but i have never directed movies"

no its not. there is no physiological aspect to directing movies. there is one to sex. and there is no societal taboo against directing movies. there is one with homosexual sex. your example is a perfect one of something you CAN choose.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
so you are telling me that according to the laws of christianity raping and murdering and eating someone is exactly as bad as kissing someone of the same sex in a passionate sexual way? Thats simply laughable to me. Of course there are degrees of "sin". And i know you feel that too. You cant tell me you see those two acts I just named as equally evil to you. Can you? Is the friendly warm happy healthy monogomous homosexual equal in your eyes to the conciousless raper killer?

I'm not saying that Raping and Murdering are considered the same as a Homosexual act...although I will say that the church considers all of these things to be mortal sins...they are all against the natural law...i.e. God's law.....in my eyes, I would consider the monogomous homosexual to be WAY above any murderer or rapist....the murder or rapist is hurting more than one person and the homosexual is only hurting himself (again that's my opinion) But it's still a grave sin...contrary to the natural Law

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
YES! they've both sinned sexually(have you not read the passages i've posted?) rape and homosexuality are equal sins in gods(and mine and whoever else agrees) eyes and he warned against both. Laugh all you freaking want.

and this is exactly the brain washed mentality that gets doctors shot and gay people killed by "rightious" christians living the letter of the christian law as they see it. Not to mention "witches" burned and fantastic books banned and many other things. gays are the same as killers! gays are child molesters! if you are gay you are nothing because you are no better then the worst criminal there is! what a message. so we must then conlude that the bible teaches us that the only word we need to know is Intolerance. if you are a certain kind of person you are bad.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Then, if there is a hell, I'm going to hell in a handbasket then. And NO, if I suddenly went back to believing there was a god, I would not repenting what I don't feel sorry for.

I completely agree that you should only repent if you truely feel sorry and have made a perfect act of contrition to God in you heart

[hectorberlioz]

Even without bieng religous, homosexuality is unnatural, its like putting two mismatching puzzle pieces together, and it ruins the whole puzzle.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
in my eyes, I would consider the monogomous homosexual to be WAY above any murderer or rapist....the murder or rapist is hurting more than one person and the homosexual is only hurting himself (again that's my opinion) But it's still a grave sin...contrary to the natural Law

well at least one of you believes that. but yes we definitely disagree on if the homosexual has done anything wrong. i think its arbitrary and pointless to declare a whole group of people to be evil because the bible says so. i just dont see the rational behind it at all. homosexuals are bad because...... Ive never had a good answer to that.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
[B]so you are telling me that according to the laws of christianity raping and murdering and eating someone is exactly as bad as kissing someone of the same sex in a passionate sexual way? Thats simply laughable to me. Of course there are degrees of "sin". And i know you feel that too. You cant tell me you see those two acts I just named as equally evil to you. Can you?

From what I read in the Bible, there seem to be different degrees of sin. In some passages, certain sins, such as pride, are singled out as especially bad. But ANY and ALL sins separate a person from God. And God has provided a way to bridge that separation through Jesus to ANY and ALL sinners, no matter how grievous their sin.

Is the friendly warm happy healthy monogomous homosexual equal in your eyes to the conciousless raper killer?

IR, I must say that they are NOT equal. But this is because one is non-existant, IMO - there is no such thing as a "friendly warm happy healthy" homosexual relationship. And monogamy in homosexual relationships, by all accounts I've read, is rare. Now I'm not saying that a homosexual will never be friendly, warm, happy, healthy, etc. - but that the lifestyle in itself is wrong, and therefore will in and of itself be destructive to those involved.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Ah, but why be homosexual and NOT engage in the sin? its like someone saying "im a movie director, but i have never directed movies"

that's the same as saying why be hetersexual and not engage in fornication or adultery...it's a choice...I know that there are gay people who chose not to act on their urges...I know straight people who do the same...I believe chastity is required of us by God

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
that's the same as saying why be hetersexual and not engage in fornication or adultery...it's a choice...I know that there are gay people who chose not to act on their urges...I know straight people who do the same...I believe chastity is required of us by God

Wow, great answer, Arien! I like that.

[hectorberlioz]

Okay, rex, I said that the ACT of homosexuality and rape are equal, not that the PEOPLE who are homosexual are evil themselves, i said: thier sinful ACTIONS.