Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
RÃ*an, I think you may be waiting some time for Baby-K to respond unfortunately. May want to direct those questions generally.

I was addressing her post/subject, so I addressed it to her, but it's open for comment by anyone. Is she on vacation?

[HOBBIT]

no, she is banned :P

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
RÃ*an, all decisions are based on judgement of some sort.

I agree. That certainly makes sense.

What do you think of my explanation of the Bible verse about not judging? Usually Christians get that verse quoted at them when asked about, for example, physical homosexual relations. A Christian might say something like "I believe that sex should be only within a marriage, which is only between a man and a woman", and the response is "Christians shouldn't judge, though, according to the Bible!" However, that doesn't make any sense, does it? We all make judgements on whether or not we think things are right or wrong.

The context of the quote on judgement (which is in Matthew 7), IMO, is looking down on and condemning others while ignoring your own faults. That's why it goes on to that famous verse, saying, why do you complain about the speck in your brother's eye but completely ignore the LOG that is in your own eye? I think that that judgemental attitude is what is wrong.

Actions that benefit you at the expense of other beings is not in the best interest of the society. And therefore, may be judged wrong. Theft and murder do not benefit the society as a whole.

I agree with your first and third sentences. We arrive at that agreement via different routes, tho, which may be seen in your second sentence. My belief is that they are wrong BECAUSE God declares them to be wrong, KNOWING that they are harmful. Your reasoning is (correct me if I'm wrong) that they are wrong BECAUSE they are harmful to society. Same conclusion, different authority. Your authority on this one, and probably on most of your values, is something is wrong if it's harmful to society; is that right? That is certainly a very reasonable and good authority for a non-Christian to have, IMO. It's just not the correct one for a Christian to hold. However, it is also correct that whatever is declared to be right by God WILL BY DEFINITION be good for people, and thus society.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
no, she is banned :P

Oh, I was afraid of that....

Darn.

I hope it's temporary, and she can "rein in" and get back to PG-13 and rejoin us, because she is intelligent and funny and nice.

[HOBBIT]

only for a week.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What do you think of my explanation of the Bible verse about not judging?
...physical homosexual relations.
..."I believe that sex should be only within a marriage, which is only between a man and a woman....

I judge all situations before I make a decision. I only judge humans by the result of their actions. IMO, someone who loves another is not committing an act that is detrimental or destructive to a society, be that person of the same or opposite sex. I also do not feel that marriage is the only prerequisite for sex between two consenting adults.

However, I am aware that sex is defined by the laws of religions all over the world, not just Christianity. If you believe in that faith, you should abide by those rules, whether or not you believe them to be right or not.

I know that in the Christian bible it states not to judge, lest you be judged. I don't care who it is, everyone sins, in some degree. Jesus saved Mary Magdallen from the mob by saying, he who is without sin cast the first stone.

All sins that do not do permanent harm to another, IMO, are on the same scale. I know how most Christians feel about homosexuality, that it is a sin. But why is a sin of love so wrong? Did not Jesus say to love one another as he loved the world? I know he is not talking about sex or romatic love. But, it is wrong to love someone in this manner if they are of the same sex, though it is something that they can not help. To come between two people who love one another should be the worst sin, and only second to murder or rape, IMO.

... My belief is that they are wrong BECAUSE God declares them to be wrong, KNOWING that they are harmful. Your reasoning is (correct me if I'm wrong) that they are wrong BECAUSE they are harmful to society. Same conclusion, different authority. Your authority on this one, and probably on most of your values, is something is wrong if it's harmful to society; is that right? That is certainly a very reasonable and good authority for a non-Christian to have, IMO. It's just not the correct one for a Christian to hold. However, it is also correct that whatever is declared to be right by God WILL BY DEFINITION be good for people, and thus society.

Yes, that is right. I believe something is wrong that harms society and the individuals that live within that society, or that takes freedoms from the individuals that lives in the society.

I have to differ with you on what you said about what is declared by god is good for society. Wars have been declared (and are written in the Bible) by the word of god. People were killed because they broke one of god's laws, which in turn, was also breaking one of god's laws (ironic, huh?). People tortured, burned, hung as heretics. And we could go through all of this again, but I will not get back into that debate which we once had. It serves no purpose. I think we will have to agree to disagree on the reason why we justify that harm is wrong.

[Tinuviel22]

I just saw this thread and found it quite interesting. In regards to your thinking that homosexuality is ok persay if someone can't help it and two people love each other and that God wants us to love. In the Bible God says that homosexuality is an abomination to Him.(Leviticus 18:22) Also our bodies are God's temple and we should do everything to protect it (in regards to smoking, drugs,etc.) Hope this helps you a little. sorry if I took your statement out of context.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Tinuviel22
...In regards to your thinking that homosexuality is ok persay if someone can't help it and two people love each other and that God wants us to love. In the Bible God says that homosexuality is an abomination to Him.(Leviticus 18:22) ....

Just so you know, since you are a newbie here and have probably not waded through the many endless pages of this thread, I do not believe in god. And therefore, your argument regarding the biblical passage does not prove your point to me.

And I do not understand why people are so upset about the love of two people, regardless of their gender. Also, I did not say 'if' they could not help it. Homosexuality is generally regarded as innate, however, not proven.

[Tinuviel22]

Ya I wasn't about to read through 84 pages
to get to the end of the messages. sorry about the misunderstanding.
Hope you don't mind but I'll be praying for ya.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
If you believe in that faith, you should abide by those rules, whether or not you believe them to be right or not.

Well, I disagree here. I think if you find a rule to be totally, flat-out, plain-and-simple wrong, then you should NOT abide by it, and in fact, you should re-evaluate your decision to be a part of that religion. Finding a rule to be not clear is another thing, and then I think that if you have found the religion to be consistent and good, then it's reasonable to abide by the rule that is not quite clear to you. But perhaps that's what you meant?

I know that in the Christian bible it states not to judge, lest you be judged. I don't care who it is, everyone sins, in some degree. Jesus saved Mary Magdallen from the mob by saying, he who is without sin cast the first stone.

sentence 1: That's right, but do you see the context that I explained above? Do you consider my example of a Christian stating an opinion on sex being between a man and wife as violating the "judge not" statement?

sentences 2 and 3 : And I agree with you that everyone sins. And it was absolutely brilliant on the part of Jesus to say what he did about the woman caught in adultery (but no indication that she was Mary M. that I know of - she's just referred to as a woman caught in adultery).

All sins that do not do permanent harm to another, IMO, are on the same scale. I know how most Christians feel about homosexuality, that it is a sin. But why is a sin of love so wrong? Did not Jesus say to love one another as he loved the world? I know he is not talking about sex or romatic love. But, it is wrong to love someone in this manner if they are of the same sex, though it is something that they can not help. To come between two people who love one another should be the worst sin, and only second to murder or rape, IMO.

well, this gets into a huge issue - were you around for the discussion on homosexuality a few months ago? If you're interested in my opinion on the subject, I posted quite a bit. Let me know if you want me to dig up a link. I'd rather not get into that now, because I have a couple of pending questions from Hobbit that I'd like to get to first, now that I'm feeling a little stronger.

I have to differ with you on what you said about what is declared by god is good for society. Wars have been declared (and are written in the Bible) by the word of god. People were killed because they broke one of god's laws, which in turn, was also breaking one of god's laws (ironic, huh?). People tortured, burned, hung as heretics. And we could go through all of this again, but I will not get back into that debate which we once had. It serves no purpose. I think we will have to agree to disagree on the reason why we justify that harm is wrong.

That was one of the pending questions that I've wanted to discuss here - I think GrayMouser was one of the ones that brought it up. It's a complex one, and an important one, and I sure hope we can discuss it in the near future.

*looks back over post - sheesh, you can tell I'm feeling a bit better, my posts are getting longer! *

[Sheeana]

Glad to hear that you're feeling better. All those good vibes I've been sending in your direction must be working.

[Rían]

Thanks very much! I really appreciate it

I see the surgeon tomorrow at 2:15 to see if he wants to remove any pieces of me that have been misbehaving ...

[GrayMouser]

Divorce?

How many Christian denominations hold with the clearly stated words of Jesus? The Catholics do, AFAIK most Protestants don't.

Luke 16: 18

Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Divorce?

How many Christian denominations hold with the clearly stated words of Jesus? The Catholics do, AFAIK most Protestants don't.

Luke 16: 18

you're right...the Catholic Church is very strict when it comes to divorcenad to marriage for that matter...there's alot of preparation involved if you want to marry within the Catholic Church...I'm going through it right now
just for the record, an anullment isn't the same thing as a divorce...and it can take several years to obtain an anullment anyways

[Sheeana]

New study challenges Noah's ark report

By ROBERT COOKE
Newsday

Related:
?EMore science news




Scientists are seriously challenging a recent, fascinating proposal that
Noah's epic story -- setting sail with an ark jam-full of animal couples
-- was based on an actual catastrophic flood that suddenly filled the
Black Sea 7,500 years ago, forcing people to flee.

In a detailed new look at the rocks, sediments, currents and seashells
in and around the Black Sea, an international research team pooh-poohs
the Noah flood idea, arguing that all the geologic, hydrologic and
biologic signs are wrong. Little that the earth can tell us seems to fit
the Noah story, they say.

The new research takes direct aim at the work of two Columbia University
geologists -- William Ryan and Walter Pitman -- whose proposal in 1997
ignited much new interest, and much new research, into Middle East
history and geology.

According to Ryan and Pitman, their strong evidence shows that sudden
flooding of the Black Sea did occur, and they think it was such a
traumatic event that it became part of the folklore of ancient peoples
of the Middle East, showing up vividly in the Bible.

Ryan and Pitman's bold proposal, first published in a marine geology
journal, holds that the gradual rise of sea level at the end of the last
Ice Age eventually overtopped and washed out a fragile natural barrier
across what is now the Bosporus Strait. And once the barrier fell, it
set off a catastrophe for settlers living in a huge basin to the
northeast.

As the fragile barrier across the Bosporus collapsed, Ryan and Pitman
proposed, a massive amount of seawater surged from the Mediterranean
into what was then a stagnant, low-lying basin, the huge region now
filled by the Black Sea. According to their scenario, the surge of
seawater continued for about two years, until the major inland sea
reached its present size.

Before the flood, Ryan and Pitman calculated, the basin contained a
large soggy marsh sitting about 500 feet lower than the sea, which was
held back by the barrier at the Bosporus. Once the barrier was breached,
they estimated, some 10 cubic miles of seawater poured through the gap
every day.

That, certainly, would have been a memorable event for people living
around the basin. They would have seen the water rising inexorably,
pushing them farther and farther up-slope, driving them away from their
homes and fields. But whether it actually happened, and whether it
matches what the ancient writings report, are questions that are open to
serious debate.

Rest at

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/ne...15noahsark.html

Edit: I noticed this was a dead link - try this one:

http://www.detnews.com/2003/religion.../a09-78822.htm

And for the other camp:
http://pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/ind...8540316890.xml

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Tinuviel22
Hope you don't mind but I'll be praying for ya.

No offense intended, but if you have nothing better to do than to pray for an Atheist, then please go ahead. As long as it makes you feel better.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...I think if you find a rule to be totally, flat-out, plain-and-simple wrong, then you should NOT abide by it, and in fact, you should re-evaluate your decision to be a part of that religion. Finding a rule to be not clear is another thing, and then I think that if you have found the religion to be consistent and good, then it's reasonable to abide by the rule that is not quite clear to you. But perhaps that's what you meant?

I mean, that either you believe all of it or you do not believe it at all. If you belong to a religion, you can't just say... Oh, well I'm a Catholic but I don't think that premarital sex, birth control or abortion is wrong. You either buy into that religion or you don't. And if you don't you need to get out of it.

That's what the Reformation in Europe was about, breaking away from the Catholic Church because they did not believe that the Catholic laws were god's laws, though interpreted through the leaders of that religion.

About the homosexuality and Christianity discussion, I don't know where I was, but I guess I wasn't checking this thread.

And yes, I think that if Christians are condemning or brutalizing someone for their sexual preference, then they should not consider themselves proper Christians, and certainly not following the bible.

What if you found out that Jesus was a homosexual, after all, it is generally believed that he did not marry nor was with a woman, but was always surrounded by men. And wasn't he in his 30's when he died? Wow, now that would be a shocker!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I mean, that either you believe all of it or you do not believe it at all. If you belong to a religion, you can't just say... Oh, well I'm a Catholic but I don't think that premarital sex, birth control or abortion is wrong. You either buy into that religion or you don't. And if you don't you need to get out of it.

Yes, I agree.

About the homosexuality and Christianity discussion, I don't know where I was, but I guess I wasn't checking this thread.

Here's where I jumped in and stated my position, if you're interested in reading it. I post quite a lot over the next several pages, IIRC. link to homosexual discussion

And yes, I think that if Christians are condemning or brutalizing someone for their sexual preference, then they should not consider themselves proper Christians, and certainly not following the bible.

Brutalizing, yes. If by "condemning", you mean merely a Christian saying that they believe homosexual behavior to be wrong, then I disagree. Is that what you mean by "condemning"?

What if you found out that Jesus was a homosexual, after all, it is generally believed that he did not marry nor was with a woman, but was always surrounded by men. And wasn't he in his 30's when he died? Wow, now that would be a shocker!

Well, considering that (1) the Bible declares Jesus to be without sin, and (2) declares homosexual behavior to be sinful, I really don't stay up at night worrying about that one!

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Divorce?

How many Christian denominations hold with the clearly stated words of Jesus? The Catholics do, AFAIK most Protestants don't.

Luke 16: 18

Hey, GrayMouser, why did you choose to quote that particular verse? I assume you're familiar with the related verses in Matthew, for example. Just curious ....

And what does AFAIK mean?

[hectorberlioz]

I am a Russian Orthodox Christian.

WHY HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG.
The reason homosexuality is wrong: in the old testament you can find several passages against homosexuality, one is:" ...and he who lies with anotheer man is already condemned, and she who lies with another woman is also condemned...", and it goes on to tell that "he who lies with another mans wife...."

SODOM AND GAMORRAH: was destroyed because the inhabitants commited INCEST, ADULTRY, AND HOMOSEXUALITY...

And in the new testament, in 1st corinthians 6:9 : "Know ye not that the unrightous shall NOT inherit the kingdom of god? ...neither : fornicators, idolaters, adulterers,effenimate(homosexuals).....shall not inherit the kingdom of god".

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Brutalizing, yes. If by "condemning", you mean merely a Christian saying that they believe homosexual behavior to be wrong, then I disagree. Is that what you mean by "condemning"?

There are people who come out and tell their families that they are gay or lesbian and their families disown them. I think that is wrong. And there are cases where people actually beat the crap out of and in some cases murdered homosexuals because of their sexual orientation. How could they have thought this was right?


HectorBerlioz: just a thought... if Christians believe that god made people, then why did god make someone homosexual and then claim it as a sin?