Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Insidious Rex]

Bust her nose Silme!

[Silme*Christian]

Insidious Rex------

PM me and I'll tell you all the things I have done in anger, that might please you enough.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Insidious Rex------

ok! um whyd you grey that out though?

[Silme*Christian]

People here might think something fearce of me if they saw what it read.

[Baby-K]

We all know how to 'open' spoilers and we all know that adding spoilers make things 'look' more.............erm................ juicy..................

[Silme*Christian]

I labelled it to Insidious Rex! Ohh well, now I am "the Christain who wants to tell her tales of fights she has been in" or "the Christian who brakes all noses she can reach" or whatever you guys are going to call me now.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I labelled it to Insidious Rex! Ohh well, now I am "the Christain who wants to tell her tales of fights she has been in" or "the Christian who brakes all noses she can reach" or whatever you guys are going to call me now.

How about .......... "The Christian who wanted to get something off their chest" ?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Coney
How about .......... "The Christian who wanted to get something off their chest" ?

well Im no father confessor but I must say I see Silme in a new light now. But like i told her I think thats a good thing. Shes definitely not the little one dimensional creature I first assumed she was. its always good to see the human side of a person (even if it is surprisingly quite violent ). Makes you feel like you can relate to someone when they explain their foibles to you and you realize theres a real living breathing person behind that screen not just disimbodied dogma. And no Silme we arent gonna think of you as the violent christian mooter or whatever. Just a little more like us now. And isnt that a good thing?

[Silme*Christian]

Yes, it is a tremendous thing. Should I give everyone a little biography of myself?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Yes, it is a tremendous thing. Should I give everyone a little biography of myself?

Silme, here

[Silme*Christian]

Thanks, but that is just a poll

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
yeah good point, in the end its your decision, but you havent really made it, its been put in front of you and youve been told to do it...

Millane - y'know, I think what you're objecting to, from this statement and the statements about thinking for yourself, is a mindless obedience to a set of standards that has been put before you; is that right?

(I'm sorry I'm taking so long to get back to you - I've got something going on with enlarged lymph nodes, and I run out of energy very quickly and am not able to do as much as I'd like to...)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Baby-K
[B]What does the commandment mean? Easily put - that you should judge others by the same measures that you would yourself & love them as you would yourself - you wouldn't write yourself off for doing something wrong, so why do it to your friends?

Do you think Christians (or more importantly, Christianity) says to NOT judge others by the same measure and NOT love them as you would yourself? What do you mean by "write yourself off"? I don't see Christianity doing this; do you?

Valid / Good ways to judge people? Ideally I suppose it would be wonderful if we could get through a day without judging people, but unfortunately it's not practical as our choices of friends etc constantly reflect our judgement of people's character and personality, intelligence and so on. However, this does not mean that we may reserve the right to condemn those people whom we do not like / judge fit to associate with or that we should hold a superior attitude to them. And I suppose a valid way to judge someone would be based on their 'performance', i. e Does this person add value to my life? Does this person have the same values and morals as me? etc etc etc, if you cannot answer 'yes' to most of the questions you ask yourself, I am sure it would hold true that, for the most part, you have nothing fundamentally in common with that person, so why would you want to stay friends with them?, In the end it would lead to constant strife, which isn't good for either party.

Do you see Christianity "condemning those people whom we do not like / judge fit to associate with" and telling Christians to have a superior attitude to others?

(RÃ*an - I answered in terms of the post made by Silme)

I'm sorry, Baby-K, I don't understand this

[Millane]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Millane - y'know, I think what you're objecting to, from this statement and the statements about thinking for yourself, is a mindless obedience to a set of standards that has been put before you; is that right?

yeah pretty much.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Baby-K
And no, I haven't given up on God - it's the self righteous christians that turn my stomach with all their constant bitching & moaning about others & judging the lives & choices of people (like gays or people having abortions etc etc etc) when, ironically one of the most important commandements of Christianity is to Love they neighbour as you'd love yourself.

If we know something to be a wrong course of action, is it not right to condemn it? I realize I have been arrogant sometimes, and am probably arrogant now, in some ways. Let me remind you that there is a difference between loving individuals and loving everything they do.

Originally posted by Baby-K
What does the commandment mean? Easily put - that you should judge others by the same measures that you would yourself & love them as you would yourself - you wouldn't write yourself off for doing something wrong, so why do it to your friends?

Christians don't write people off. True Christians don't make the rules, either. We follow the Bible, God's Word, which tells us how to live. We believe that God has set down what we need to know to run our lives, in this book, and we do our best to follow it.

When we do a sin, we repent. When nonChristians sin, they don't always repent of what they've done. It's a matter of humbling yourself and seeking forgiveness. We're all guilty, but not everyone is ready to admit it. From those that refuse to acknowledge their wrongness, punishment must ensue. So it is in my family. When somebody does something wrong and is sorry, they are forgiven. If they are not sorry, they force my unwilling Dad to spank them.

Christians are not meant to judge. If you have meant judgemental Christians, I am very grieved that you received a bad witness. I am very much aware that such Christians exist. Various people I know have had bad experiences with churches, my uncle, for one. It clearly states in the Bible that it is not our place to judge. However, certain things God has called sin, and when people let themselves fall into sin, it is true that we must often try to help the person out of that.

If you were falling into a path of theft and murder, things you know plainly are wrong and lead to a bad place (prison or worse), you know that it would be best for you if we assisted you off of that path. It treads a possibly fine line with judgement. Also, when the sin is within the body of Christ, it is more frequently our responsibility that it be rooted out so that it doesn't spread. This rather frequently has been abused, in churches, but it is a truth for nonChristians as well as Christians. We all know that bad influences can badly affect any gathering. Have we not some right to try to remove what we know to be a sin from amongst us?

Yet most sins we turn the other cheek to. Ones done explicitely against us. Most of this judgement you see is simply a response to a refusal to accept mercy. The two are very important aspects of God's character.

In the Old Testament, the city of Ninevah turned from its wickedness and repented, thus turning itself over to God's mercy, and he fulfilled what he had longed to do, and spared them.

In the New Testament, Jesus wept over the murderous city of Jerusalem, because of the destruction they were calling on themselves.

The Old Testament God brought countries to their knees, and the New Testament Jesus spoke a large amount on hell. Justice was a common aspect of God's character, just as mercy is.

It is up to each individual which they will accept.

[Rían]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Millane - y'know, I think what you're objecting to, from this statement and the statements about thinking for yourself, is a mindless obedience to a set of standards that has been put before you; is that right?

Originally posted by Millane
yeah pretty much.

I think that's wrong, too, BTW, and I see both Christians and non-Christians doing it, unfortunately.

I think that Christianity is a real thinking religion, and it's a shame when people don't bother to think things through. You've probably seen a few of my posts and Lief's posts - do you think we're mindlessly obeying a set of rules, or do you see us using our brains and thinking things through?

However, both of us (Lief, correct me if I'm wrong about you ) accept the standard that we see in the Bible (as expressed in the New Testament, which is the standard that applies to Christians), and choose to do our best to follow it, because we have used our heads and thought it through and believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the truth. Now the vast majority of Biblical commands, both positive and negative, make a tremendous amount of sense. There are some areas that are not currently popular culturally, such as the statement that sex belongs in a marriage between a man and a woman, but "popularity" doesn't matter, because it makes sense to assume that the Creator that made us in the first place knows how we best operate. IOW, a car manufacturer usually includes an instruction manual with the new car that you buy, and any "don't" rules are for the good of the machine (like please don't inflate the tires over a certain psi, or don't put anything besides a certain type of gasoline in the tank); the Bible, among other things, is an instruction manual for how people run best, written by the Creator of people, and the "don't" rules are for the good of the person.

Now some people seem to want to "pick and choose" those items in the Bible which they want to obey; however, this is because, IMO, they don't really believe in the God of the Bible, because this is really just saying that they know better than God, isn't it? And that certainly isn't the Biblical image of God! (doesn't make much sense, either, that a being that could make the universe and everything in it is just a bit dense when it comes to what is best for His creation....) So if you have come to a thoughtful conclusion that the Bible is true, then you need to choose to obey the standard set forth in the New Testament, even if you don't fully understand everything to the minutest detail. However, of course, if you see huge inconsistencies in what the Bible says, or see things that are totally hurtful to people (as opposed to some little hurt that is for a greater good), then you need to re-evaluate Christianity. I've been a Christian for almost 30 years, and have read the Bible many times, and have over 200 books on Biblical topics, and I see nothing but consistency and goodness and love, altho sometimes a "tougher" love than is comfortable! But a "tougher" love is also a strong love that is better than a weak, wimpy "oh, whatever makes the little darlings happy even if it hurts them" love, don't you think?

It's like an analogy I've used before - say you have a favorite professor at uni who is very wise and from whom you've learned a tremendous amount, and who has also been a faithful and helpful friend, and his advice has always proved good. One day he asks you to do something that you might not fully understand and may not be terribly fun. It is consistent with reason, IMO, to do it, as long as it doesn't go flat against any of his other teachings in a harmful way. Now the thinking part comes in with your evaluation of "is this inconsistent or harmful, to the best of my understanding?" And if the answer is "no", then even tho it might not fully make sense, because of your relationship with this wise person who has always been faithful and wise and true, you choose to obey.

Does that make sense?

Now I believe you're an agnostic or athiest, is that right? And it looks like you're a fan of MM. Then your standard probably comes from basically what is currently thought to be right or wrong in that particular sub-culture. (And this implies that there is no absolute truth, BTW. Do you believe that?) We ALL have standards; what differs is where we get them from.

[Rían]

Baby-K : I think I'll work off of Lief's post as we continue to discuss judging. I think he makes some thoughtful points; do you?

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
If we know something to be a wrong course of action, is it not right to condemn it?

Do you agree with this, Baby-K? I certainly see you doing this For example, you think it's wrong to judge others; now how did you come to that conclusion? You made a judgement, did you not? IIRC, you have also made the following 2 judgements: (1) the homosexual lifestyle is not wrong, and (2) Christians are wrong to say it is. Is that right?

My point is that there are several meanings to this term. Check out your dictionary - I have 10 meanings in my little one. I think you are very correct to object to the "writing off" sense of the word, and I believe that is the sense that is meant in the Bible when Christians are told to not judge. Only God can truly see our hearts and motives, and He makes the final call, which will always be the right one because of His wisdom and justice and love.

However, in another sense of the word we are RIGHT to judge; indeed, there is NO OTHER WAY to carry out some of God's commandments except to use our judgement - just one example is that according to the Bible, if a Christian sees another Christian in a habitual pattern of sin, he/she is instructed to go to the person privately and lovingly confront them with the issue. How can we carry this out if we can't judge?

Do you see the difference? What do you think?


And I agree with Lief - "If you have meant judgemental Christians, I am very grieved that you received a bad witness. I am very much aware that such Christians exist." But I would also add that there are plenty of non-Christians that are judgemental. But I think it's also worse if a Christian is judgemental in a bad way, because Christians are supposed to love others, while still rightly calling sin as sin. However, please remember that it's the NON-perfect people that become Christians , and it takes some time to work Christ's character in them.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
If you were falling into a path of theft and murder, things you know plainly are wrong and lead to a bad place (prison or worse), you know that it would be best for you if we assisted you off of that path.

Baby-K - do you agree with this? And do you think that Lief would have to use judgement to identify that you do indeed need help? Of course you could refuse efforts to help you, but Lief would need to judge correctly based on evidence that he sees in order to make the decision to offer you his help. (And I would take it if I were you, because he's nice as well as intelligent! ) Now I think he would be "judging" in the wrong sense if, after seeing you in harm's way, his final decision was "oh, she's not worth doing anything about - let her keep going on that path - I'm not going to stir even my little finger to help her! She's not worth it!"

And that final sentence is the ultimate wrong judgement to make, BTW - people ARE worth it, and ARE valuable, altho they have free will and can choose to go whatever path they want to go, right or wrong, good or harmful, and sometimes the loving decision is to LET them go down the path a bit to see that the promises made were false, or there were things that they were NOT told about that were a little ways down the path that were harmful.....

You've shared some things that you were involved with in your past - did you use judgement in determining that they were harmful to you, and in deciding to get out of them? Would you say a Christian is judgemental if you asked about, say, drug use and he/she said that they thought it was wrong?

Am I asking too many questions?

[Insidious Rex]

RÃ*an, I think you may be waiting some time for Baby-K to respond unfortunately. May want to direct those questions generally.

[Ruinel]

RÃ*an, all decisions are based on judgement of some sort.

Actions that benefit you at the expense of other beings is not in the best interest of the society. And therefore, may be judged wrong. Theft and murder do not benefit the society as a whole.