Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Baby-K]

Could you pray for a friend of mine? She says she is a Christian, but her parents are Catholic and Mormon and she does drugs and smokes and cybers and if hooked on porn and this post will take half an hour to read about all her "Christian" flaws so I will end with those. Can you pray that something snaps in her head and she gets involved with Christ like she 'says' she is?

This is exactly why I no longer call myself Christian, not for nothing, but yer friend chooses to do those things for a reason, no amount of praying is gonna make summin 'snap' in her brain (unless the prayer is bashed in with a baseball bat ). BTW, how does her parents' beliefs & lifestyles reflect on her & why do you include it as her 'flaws'? I did all that stuff (well maybe not all of it, but the drugs & the drinking & smoking & whatever else) and called myself christian because I never thought of God as a judgemental bastard & I had a really good relationship with him, even through all the sh*t that happened in my life, but it's because of centiments such as those displayed in your post that I no longer bother calling myself Christian. Simply put I cannot bother to be associated with such judgemental attitudes. And no, I haven't given up on God - it's the self righteous christians that turn my stomach with all their constant bitching & moaning about others & judging the lives & choices of people (like gays or people having abortions etc etc etc) when, ironically one of the most important commandements of Christianity is to Love they neighbour as you'd love yourself.

BTW Silme, have you tried talking to your friend? Somehow I think 'actions' would count for more in the BIG BOOK. Anyway, I don't want to be nasty to you, so I'll just say good luck & hope your friend doesn't get hurt with the drugs etc.

Ohh, I need some prayers. There is a girl at my Youth Group who as quite the (God forgive) snot. And she treats me bad. (like criticizing everthink you do) and I need prayers on this subject. Please pray that I don't break her nose in anger (I did once but I don't want to do it again) and that I find the strength to resist her evil ways.

Ironic that you'd feel the need for prayer not to smash someone's face in because they criticise you, yet you ask for prayer to help you criticise someone else........................can you say double standard?

I haven't broken anyone's nose, but I've been awfully mad at people.

I have..........and no I wasn't mad, I was sparring against him & he hit me a bit hard so I retaliated & smashed his nose He passed out & I grabbed him by the ankles & dragged him off my bed screaming 'Don't you get your stinky, blood on my bed!' (I was about 8 and my cousin was a few months older). Hehe, I'm so glad my daddy taught me to box

[Gwaimir Windgem]

BTW, how does her parents' beliefs & lifestyles reflect on her & why do you include it as her 'flaws'?

I'm not sure, but I believe that Catholics and Mormons as a whole tend to be rather...less than friendly to one another. Whether or not this is the case with the parents (if I am correct) it could very easily be carried over from the in-laws, I would think. If this is the case, I think Silme would have been mentioning that to say that she comes from a somewhat strife-ful background.

[Baby-K]

Howye Gwaim, long time no see, wazzup?

She says she is a Christian, but her parents are Catholic and Mormon and she does drugs and smokes and cybers and if hooked on porn and this post will take half an hour to read about all her "Christian" flaws so I will end with those.

*re-reads slowly* erm, sorry Gwai, but I still don't see it like that - it looks to me that she's saying her friend cannot be christian because of the linneage.......and that posting ALL her flaws would cause a bit of extra reading for us.....thus to me indicating that her parents are included in the so-called flaws.

If she'd meant it the way you think she should learn to phrase her statements correctly so as not to confuzzle sinners like me

Also, Silme - why be friends with someone if they so obviously offend you?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
well thats good but do you not find that Christianity ristricts you in any way? i mean its more sets of rules... i was just in the Friendmaking thread or whatever it is and someone said this
now dont you think life would be better if you could decide these things for yourself, if you want to smoke, its your decision, you want to look at porn again it should be your choice... thats what i was trying to get at with living by what i think is right and wrong...

Millane - It might take me a few tries to express what I think - here's the first cut:

As far as Christianity "restricting" you - I think there's 2 points here - negative vs. positive commands, and the issue of what's controlling you.

On the first subject - I think if you ask someone who's not a Christian (and who is thus not experiencing the wonderful reality of freedom in God, and God's love and comfort and strength) what does it mean to be a Christian, they'll say something along the lines of "you gotta obey a bunch of rules" - and the rules they typically come up with are the "not" rules like you shall not commit adultery. I've been a Christian for almost 30 years, and I find "obeying the rules" to not be a big part of Christianity at all. In fact, if I find myself worrying about "obeying the rules" in the sense that I think you mean, that usually means that I've slipped into legalism and away from God.

What I'm trying to express is that Christianity is mainly relational, not legal. Christians obey God's just and right and good laws because they love God and see His goodness, and trust Him because He has shown Himself repeatedly faithful.

Jesus says, in John chapter 14, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." This is the same thing behind why my children need to obey me. I have "commandments" for them, because I am older and wiser than they are. My "commandments" for them are NOT mean, or even arbitrary - they are for their own good, and when they obey them, it brings happiness and health and good things to them. And my children strive to obey me, even if they don't fully understand all my commandments (like you need to get this shot to keep you healthy) because they see my love for them, and they trust me.

There are some "not" commands, but they are for our good. And there are loads of "do this" commands that are positive, such as in the previous chapter of John, where Jesus says to love one another, and serve one another. And all throughout the New Testament (which is the book that Christians follow - they are not bound to the Old Testament laws) are things like love your neighbor, help one another, encourage one another, be patient with one another, etc.

So as a Christian, I don't wander around thinking "OMG, I just blew command #81!"; or even worse, "OMG, that creep just blew command #52!". I will think things like "well, that wasn't really a kind thing I did there - God, please help me to be a kinder person, and show me why I acted the way I did, and how we can work on it, and show me if I can do anything to help that person out." See, the focus is relational - my relationship to God as a child of His who can get much-needed help and guidance, in addition to love, and my relationship to others - I strive to be truthful, kind, loving, etc. to other people (altho sadly I often fail miserably). Can you see? - it's about as far from legalistic, law-obsessed, "sets of rules" (your phrase ) living as you can get.

And as usual, my post got longer than I intended, so I'll discuss the second topic after we go over the first (if you or anyone else have any questions or comments).

[Millane]

well i hope you can make sense of this because ill confuse myself if i try to do it by quotes...
of course there are good commands, and the majority are good, but i think at some time in your life you should be responsible for your decisions and they should be your and yours alone. It's great that you raise your children in that way and it's something very essential so children grow up healthy. Yet at some point these 'commandments' will have to stop and they will have to make choices for themselves. I personally dont see why i should abide by God's rules (even if they are for my benefit) if i am fully capable of making the decision myself, sure theoretically God would know better than me, but if it came to a choice of taking drugs or not and i know the risks im taking, then why would God know better than me and why is it Gods decision to make?
it may not affect you majorly at all during your life but i guess in theory i would just feel restricted by these commandments...
just as a sidenote, why is pornography considered 'bad'?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Baby-K
And no, I haven't given up on God - it's the self righteous christians that turn my stomach with all their constant bitching & moaning about others & judging the lives & choices of people (like gays or people having abortions etc etc etc) when, ironically one of the most important commandements of Christianity is to Love they neighbour as you'd love yourself.

What do you think that commandment means, Baby K? And do you think there's any valid/good ways to judge people?


Silme - You have a job, and you're only 14? What do you do?

[Elvellyn]

She says she is a Christian, but her parents are Catholic and Mormon and she does drugs and smokes and cybers and if hooked on porn and this post will take half an hour to read about all her "Christian" flaws so I will end with those.

It seems to me that most people (at least people my age) don't think of being a Christian in the same way that I do. When I describe myself as a Christian, I mean that I am saved and have a relationship with God. I think alot of times people describe themselves as "Christian" as opposed to Muslim or Jewish.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
of course there are good commands, and the majority are good, but i think at some time in your life you should be responsible for your decisions and they should be your and yours alone.

How am I not responsible for my decisions? My decisions are certainly mine and mine alone

It's great that you raise your children in that way and it's something very essential so children grow up healthy.

I'm really not trying to be obnoxious or difficult here, but could you please explain why you say it's "essential" so they "grow up healthy"? I'd really like to understand why you think that.

Yet at some point these 'commandments' will have to stop and they will have to make choices for themselves. I personally dont see why i should abide by God's rules (even if they are for my benefit) if i am fully capable of making the decision myself, sure theoretically God would know better than me, but if it came to a choice of taking drugs or not and i know the risks im taking, then why would God know better than me and why is it Gods decision to make?

They make choices for themselves every day. When they are little and live in my house, I try to teach them the standards I believe to be right, and teach them WHY I believe them to be right, and teach the reasoning behind the standards. They can choose to obey or not, but if they disobey, they have consequences (for example, if they don't obey the standard of kindness, when they grab a toy out of their sibling's hand, the consequence would be to lose the privilege of playing with that toy for a short time). When they're out on their own, they'll continue to make their own choices, and hopefully they'll choose the same standard through their own love of God.

However, I think we're getting confused about what "choice" means. You seem to be saying that they don't have a "choice", but perhaps a better word would be "standard", because I think what you're objecting to is the standard of Christianity, and saying that they don't have a choice as to the standard that I teach. Is that right? If so, what standard do you think that I should have for them, and why?

it may not affect you majorly at all during your life but i guess in theory i would just feel restricted by these commandments...

I think that's because you're not a Christian, and because of that, you don't really know and experience first-hand the great love that God has for you. And when you know this, you don't feel restricted at all - instead, you're grateful for them, for they are life-giving. We need some commandments to live in this world, wouldn't you agree? For example, "if you want to stay alive, don't step in front of a truck going 100 mph." Just a silly example, but my point is that there are some rules that we need, for our own good. And my belief is that the ones from God, as expressed in the Bible, are all for our own good.

just as a sidenote, why is pornography considered 'bad'?

Now that's a huge sidenote! I think we better finish up other topics first. I'll just say one quick thing, tho - leaving alone the issue about whether or not it's harmful to the viewer (which I think it is), look at the lives of those that are actually IN the pictures - they are valued for their body alone, aren't they, and are just discarded if they lose their beauty. Do you think a viewer should not care about how the pictures are obtained? And what about child pornography? What about porn that is obtained without the person's knowledge?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elvellyn
It seems to me that most people (at least people my age) don't think of being a Christian in the same way that I do. When I describe myself as a Christian, I mean that I am saved and have a relationship with God. I think alot of times people describe themselves as "Christian" as opposed to Muslim or Jewish.

Yes, I think there's some confusion in this area.

Your avatar is pretty - did you draw it?

[Elvellyn]

Thanks. No, I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I found it on a website.

[Millane]

Rian, my apologies if im not making much sense, i should be in bed, but ill respond as clearly as i can

I'm really not trying to be obnoxious or difficult here, but could you please explain why you say it's "essential" so they "grow up healthy"? I'd really like to understand why you think that.

well i think that, when young, people are being shaped and taught much by there parents, and i think that it is essential that children are shown boundaries (and these explained to them) so that they can grow up healthy, as a simple literal example: a child should be told to eat vegetables and told because they'll keep you healthy, later on when they have left home they will eat properly because they know they should...

How am I not responsible for my decisions? My decisions are certainly mine and mine alone

yeah good point, in the end its your decision, but you havent really made it, its been put in front of you and youve been told to do it...

However, I think we're getting confused about what "choice" means. You seem to be saying that they don't have a "choice", but perhaps a better word would be "standard", because I think what you're objecting to is the standard of Christianity, and saying that they don't have a choice as to the standard that I teach. Is that right? If so, what standard do you think that I should have for them, and why?

i think id better leave this till tommorrer

I think that's because you're not a Christian, and because of that, you don't really know and experience first-hand the great love that God has for you.

and yet i dont think i would be able to, my mind is to skeptical to believe in God and even then i would prefer to just live my life as is and be happy, and that doesnt include religion for me...

Now that's a huge sidenote! I think we better finish up other topics first. I'll just say one quick thing, tho - leaving alone the issue about whether or not it's harmful to the viewer (which I think it is), look at the lives of those that are actually IN the pictures - they are valued for their body alone, aren't they, and are just discarded if they lose their beauty. Do you think a viewer should not care about how the pictures are obtained? And what about child pornography? What about porn that is obtained without the person's knowledge?

what about actors? how do they differ from people in porn? there have got to be standards of course and there are now its just that it is hard to enforce. i see no harm in perfectly legal pornography and i dont think that that should be anyones concern apart from the people involved...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
Rian, my apologies if im not making much sense, i should be in bed, but ill respond as clearly as i can

I'm sorry; are you sick? Or are we just in different time zones?

[Millane]

im from Aust and its 3.30 in the morning. and im off to bed

[Rían]

Oh, ok! G'nite!

[Aewionen]

Originally posted by Millane
yeah good point, in the end its your decision, but you havent really made it, its been put in front of you and youve been told to do it...

But then again, how many people do what they are told? You have the decision to either do it or not. The choice is always yours to make.

[Silme*Christian]

Silme - You have a job, and you're only 14? What do you do?

I have an at-home-job. I 'dog-sit' some of my naughbors dogs. I am taking care of 13 dogs now. Get payed 6 dollars a day.

[Millane]

But then again, how many people do what they are told? You have the decision to either do it or not. The choice is always yours to make.

yes but thats the same as Laws, if i wanted to go out and shoot someone, well the end decision is mine but im pressured not to do it...
now ill try and make sense of what i said last night

However, I think we're getting confused about what "choice" means. You seem to be saying that they don't have a "choice", but perhaps a better word would be "standard", because I think what you're objecting to is the standard of Christianity, and saying that they don't have a choice as to the standard that I teach. Is that right? If so, what standard do you think that I should have for them, and why?

no ill try and refrase what it would be like for me, because you sound like you have a good relationship with God and these things arent a bad for you.. like i was saying above there are some things that should be our choice to make, we shouldnt need to be pressured by God to make a decision that we are fully capable of making ourselves...

[Baby-K]

What do you think that commandment means, Baby K? And do you think there's any valid/good ways to judge people?

What does the commandment mean? Easily put - that you should judge others by the same measures that you would yourself & love them as you would yourself - you wouldn't write yourself off for doing something wrong, so why do it to your friends?

Valid / Good ways to judge people? Ideally I suppose it would be wonderful if we could get through a day without judging people, but unfortunately it's not practical as our choices of friends etc constantly reflect our judgement of people's character and personality, intelligence and so on. However, this does not mean that we may reserve the right to condemn those people whom we do not like / judge fit to associate with or that we should hold a superior attitude to them. And I suppose a valid way to judge someone would be based on their 'performance', i. e Does this person add value to my life? Does this person have the same values and morals as me? etc etc etc, if you cannot answer 'yes' to most of the questions you ask yourself, I am sure it would hold true that, for the most part, you have nothing fundamentally in common with that person, so why would you want to stay friends with them?, In the end it would lead to constant strife, which isn't good for either party.

(RÃ*an - I answered in terms of the post made by Silme)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I have an at-home-job. I 'dog-sit' some of my naughbors dogs. I am taking care of 13 dogs now. Get payed 6 dollars a day.

Errrrr... this makes no sense... because you stated in another thread that...

"I got a new job that involves me getting a lot of e-mails but because of this problem, I get so many e-mails the my Boss and fellow Employees can't e-mail me. I thank you, dearly, in advance."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but how many 'dog-sitters' do you work with and why would you need a 'boss'?

[Silme*Christian]

OK, I will try to clear this up as best I can. The "place" I work for is called Kibbies Kennels. Kibbies Kennels is just a string of houses with a special sign. The person would go to one of the Kibbies Kennels nearest to them. Does that make sense? It is very complicated. I am also doing a program (I volunteer for this) where I would train a dog to work with disabled people (AKA I am in the "Guide Dog" business). So I am training two dogs and taking care of 11. Get it yet?