Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Lief Erikson]

The fact that these two lineages of Joseph are contradictory as to
Joseph's forefathers calls both into question and clearly shows that
the Gospels contain errors and were thus the work of fallible men and
not God.

It has been claimed that Luke was giving the ancestors of Mary, but
this is spurious, since she is not even mentioned. Further, Luke
mentions clearly in Luke 3:23 that Jesus was not the son of Joseph saying
that "he was supposed the son of Joseph". If Luke was not giving Joseph's
paternal ancestry, he could easily have said so as he did in the case
of Jesus.

I have not studied this subject, but I shall answer anyway.

Luke has been shown to be an incredibly accurate historian in all historical details of the time period. He states his goal to write accurately in the beginning of his book, and there are no writings of the time challenging Jesus' descent that I know of. Mary's not being mentioned is not unusual. Note that no women were mentioned in this genealogy and almost none in the one in Matthew. Very few times were they mentioned in other genealogies either.

Originally written in the NIV notes
There are several differencese between Luke's genealogy and Matthew's (1:2-16). Matthew begins with Abraham (the father of the Jewish people), while Luke traces the line in the reverse order and goes back to Adam, showing Jesus' relationship to the whole human race (see 2:31). From Abraham to David, the genealogies of Matthew and Luk,e are almost the same, but from David on they are different. Some scholars suggest that this is b3ecause Matthew traces the legal descent of the house of David using only heirs to the throne, while Luke traces the complete line of Joseph to David. A more likely explanation, however, is that Matthew follows the line of Joseph (Jesus' legal father), while Luke emphasizes that of Mary (Jesus' blood relative). Althought tracing a genealogy through the mother's side was unusual, so was the virgin birth. Luke's explanation here that Jesus was the son of Joseph, "so it was thought" (v. 23), brings to mind his explicit virgin birth statement (1:34-35) and suggests the importance of the role of Mary in Jesus' genealogy.

Furthermore, I have one other thing I'd like to point out about this part of your quote:

Jeremiah 22:30
30 The Lord says this, list this man (King Jehoiakim) as
childless; a man who made a failure of his life, since none
of his descendants will have the fortune to sit on the throne
of David or to rule in Judah again.

Luke 18:33-37
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

It says in another passage of the Bible that his dominion is everlasting. He isn't a ruler over a physical realm, but he has overcome the world. Christianity spread and endured and grew large, while physical reigns have fallen.

It is possible that the statement of the Lord to King Jehoiakim was speaking of physical rulership. Jesus himself says that his kingdom is not of this world. And yet we have two genealogies from trustworthy historians pointing his line to David.

Anyway, I don't find it a strong contradiction to the Bible's accuracy, or the using of the prophesies as an evidence. You have brought up an argument that questions one prophesy.

[Rían]

(just a quick side-track here - MasterMothra asked something in the evolution thread, and it was starting to get to be a long OT, so I moved my answer here)

The post by MM that started the discussion:

by MasterMothra
the hardest thing to do is to let go of you belief in the christian god. but once you do it, it will be like a load of bricks off your back. enabling you to concentrate on the things that matter in life, like your family and children. and for once in your life you can finally put the importance of your family, not "god", as your top priority in life.

My answer:

I disagree, MM, and say that if it WAS like a load of bricks off your back, then you probably had some wrong teaching of what Christianity is, because I find it the most incredibly freeing thing I've ever experienced. It gives me incredible joy and freedom, and enables me to love my family and friends much better than before I was a Christian. I'm sorry it wasn't that way for you - PM me if you want to discuss it, or we can discuss it on the Offshoot thread when we're done here, if you would like to.

His reponse:

by MM
what is the most important thing in your life; god, your husband, your family,etc?
would you sacrifice one of your children for god, as abraham was to sacrifice issac?

My response:

To me, this implies that having God as the most important thing in your life means that your family and children, to use your example, suffer; as opposed to if THEY were the most important thing in your life. IOW, it is relatively BETTER for them to be the most important thing in your life. Is that what you mean?

I disagree with this idea, though, because I have found that having God as the most important thing in my life has enabled me, as I said before, to love them better!.

For a quick example, it's like saying "if you study nutrition, you will by definition spend less time with your family, which is not good." However, you study nutrition because you love your family! and having spent the time studying, you are better able to take care of them. There is also an assumption (which is a faulty one, IMO) that having your family and children as the most important thing in your life[/i] is their highest good.[/i] I disagree with this. I think there is a higher good for them, and that is able to take place when a person is in right relationship with God.

The quick answer to your second question is no. I'm too tired to go into it now, and there was a HUGE, LONG discussion on Abraham/Isaac where I posted at great length on the subject. Would you to look that up? Do a search on Isaac with my username.

[Rían]

(and you never responded to my response to your question about "what universal law states that variations always stay within the species" on the evolution thread - could you please respond?)

[Silme*Christian]

I love being a Christian!

[MasterMothra]

ok this is the way i see it. the more time i waste on a false god, or one that simply doesnt exists, is less time that i can be with my family.
my family will always be more important than anything. even the almighty himself, if he did exist. theres no right or wrong answer to the question, just a question of priorities. i would never have chosen as abraham did, i would have chosen my son over a god that asks me to do ridiculous things to "prove" my faith. your christian god sure does seem to have an ego.

as far as the law that i asked about; no one has of yet, been able to supply such a law.

[Aewionen]

In the Bible, (Genesis 22) it tells the story of God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. I believe God did this to test Abraham to see where his loyalty stood and how much Abraham truly loved God. Abraham obeyed and God sent a ram to sacrifice instead of Isaac. In a Jewish tradition (someone please correct me if I am wrong) it says Isaac was willing going let his father sacrifice him. In Job 23:10 it says, "But he knows the way I take; when he has tested me I will come forth as gold." Because Abraham obeyed God, God blessed him. (Genesis 22:17,18) "I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sands on the seashore. Your descendants will take possesion of the cities of thier enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed because you have obeyed me." Though all of this is true, we must remeber that God's promise was unconditional based on his faithfulness, not Abraham's. God was the top priority on Abraham's list.

As for priorities, God is on the top of my list. I love God with all my heart and I hope I will be able to obey Him in whatever he asks. This will help me grow in God, to grow in Him we must, Go to chruch, Read our bibles and pray, Obey Him, and Witness to others.

[MasterMothra]

why does your god require that you "prove" your faith?

[Rían]

MM - about the law - my response was that it is not necessary to "provide" such a law, since it is the person making the claim that needs to supply the evidence. Under your reasoning, I can say "God exists", and say it's true because you can't show it to be false. But I also pointed out that there have been NO OBSERVATIONS to support the claim of macroevolution. One can't extrapolate and say that there never WILL be an observation, but certainly the fact that there never have been any observations should be very important. And one cannot extrapolate on the other side, too, and say "well, there haven't been any observations, but I think that someday there will be" - well, one can SAY that, but it certainly is not evidence.

Here's the link where the Abraham/Isaac discussion started - Abraham/Isaac link. This was a one-time, special occurance in the Old Testament, with a specially chosen person (or people, since Isaac was an adult and could have easily fought his father off), with one major purpose being to provide a picture of what God the Father (as opposed to Abraham the father) was going to do, out of His love for us, by providing His Son Jesus as a perfect sacrifice.

[Rían]

(ps - MM, could you take a look at the venting thread and see if you have any advice, as a lawyer, for JD? He really got screwed by some chronic-user-type renters, and you're the only lawyer I know of - you might know some people in the area - thanks)

[Silme*Christian]

MM-Don't patronize us cause we're happy

[Rían]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
MM-Don't patronize us cause we're happy

[Aewionen]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why does your god require that you "prove" your faith?

I am not sure but I will ask Him when I see Him.

(Here is something I forgot in my last post)
Tests of faith are not to enlighten God; they are to teach us. Tests help uncover our real motives, clarify or deep loyalties, eliminate deceit and nuture genuine faith.

[Millane]

MM-Don't patronize us cause we're happy

hahahaha as if us "uninlightened" dont get patronised because we have as MM said, different priorities. (i always think of Marilyn Manson when i see MM )
lets put God's tests of faith to a different tone, if i came over to anyone and asked them to kill there son/daughter to prove there faith in me, naturally you would call me a sicko and call the police. can someone explain (and i honestly mean no offence to the religious people here) but how does God's test of faith differ from Hitler making the Hitler Youth raise german shepards only to kill them to show there ultimate loyalty to him

As for priorities, God is on the top of my list. I love God with all my heart and I hope I will be able to obey Him in whatever he asks. This will help me grow in God, to grow in Him we must, Go to chruch, Read our bibles and pray, Obey Him, and Witness to others.

i think i may have asked this before but why go to church? i mean is it just so we can learn how to live a life in accordance with God's guidelines?.
anyway my philosophy on life is to live by what i see is right and wrong, im not going to be chained down in my one life just so i can get on the goodside of someone that may exist. Get Up Stand Up puts forth some of my reasons for the dislike of Religion
Most people think great God will come from the Sky,
Take away everything and make everybody feel high,
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth.

[Silme*Christian]

Hey you guys, I have a Youth Group project that I have to do and I need to find some Christiants who can answer these questions.

Please state your name....................................PS usernames are fine(for instance Sile*Christian says...)

please state your age.......................................

1. on a scale on 1-10 what would you rate your relationship with God?

2. Has God given you a miracle?

3. What was that miracle?

4. Are you happy with your relationship with God?

5. Why? or why not?

6.Do you "shout it out" about God?

I know, strange questians. I can explain later, when the asighnment is done.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
hahahaha as if us "uninlightened" dont get patronised because we have as MM said, different priorities. (i always think of Marilyn Manson when i see MM )

Any type of patronizing by anyone is wrong, IMO. I think all people deserve great respect, no matter what their beliefs/opinions are.

lets put God's tests of faith to a different tone, if i came over to anyone and asked them to kill there son/daughter to prove there faith in me, naturally you would call me a sicko and call the police. can someone explain (and i honestly mean no offence to the religious people here) but how does God's test of faith differ from Hitler making the Hitler Youth raise german shepards only to kill them to show there ultimate loyalty to him

I posted at great length on this subject and would rather not repeat it right now (I'm pretty busy on another thread), but if you're interested in my opinion (someone who's been a Christian for quite some time), then you could read those posts first and then comment on them. I gave a link a few posts up to where the discussion started.

(and thanks for your "and i honestly mean no offence to the religious people here" note, BTW - I always appreciate when people take extra care to show consideration and respect, esp. in discussions like this that can get pretty emotional)

i think i may have asked this before but why go to church? i mean is it just so we can learn how to live a life in accordance with God's guidelines?.

That's one reason - but I think the main one is for support and fellowship and encouragement and accountability with other Christians. Another is for worship, another is for the food

anyway my philosophy on life is to live by what i see is right and wrong ...

So's mine

[Aewionen]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Hey you guys, I have a Youth Group project that I have to do and I need to find some Christiants who can answer these questions.

Please state your name....................................PS usernames are fine(for instance Sile*Christian says...)

please state your age.......................................

1. on a scale on 1-10 what would you rate your relationship with God?

2. Has God given you a miracle?

3. What was that miracle?

4. Are you happy with your relationship with God?

5. Why? or why not?

6.Do you "shout it out" about God?

I know, strange questians. I can explain later, when the asighnment is done.

Aewionen, age:13

1) 5 or 6
2)yes
3) my sister was hit by a car going 45 mph and didn't have any broken bones and when she hit the pavement, which was really hard, nothing happened to her head and she was out of the hospital in a week or so
4) no
5) I want to be closer to him, an 11 on a scale of 1-10
6)Kinda

[Gulio, Strength of Many]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Hey you guys, I have a Youth Group project that I have to do and I need to find some Christiants who can answer these questions.

Please state your name....................................PS usernames are fine(for instance Sile*Christian says...)

please state your age.......................................

1. on a scale on 1-10 what would you rate your relationship with God?

2. Has God given you a miracle?

3. What was that miracle?

4. Are you happy with your relationship with God?

5. Why? or why not?

6.Do you "shout it out" about God?

I know, strange questians. I can explain later, when the asighnment is done.

Kaitlan-age 14
1.7 or 8
2.Oh yes
3.I'm Aewionen's sis
4. Sort of
5.I can always get closer
6.Yeppers!

[Millane]

Any type of patronizing by anyone is wrong, IMO. I think all people deserve great respect, no matter what their beliefs/opinions are.

i agree, i guess my dislike for christianity came from school, i may have got the wrong impression then but it was put across as not only unquestionable, any questions we had that werent pro-christianity went unanswered and we had to put up with lectures about it etc, and also intolerant of other religions, in an assembly a play was shown with a person being sucked into quicksand, a number of different religious figures came out and did ignored the plea's of the person. an example of this was confuscius came out and said "you mustn't have respected your family" and left him to die, eventually Jesus came out and saved him because Jesus saves all regardless of what they have done because he believes in second chances, i didnt think that putting Jesus in that light was bad, but the disrespect payed to other religions was so wrong that our Philosophy class spent the lesson afterwards talking about it, the minister who ran that assembly laughed at the end and said "well hahaha that was a bit tongue in cheek"
i know that it is not a fault with christianity rather with the school but it has certainly made an impression on me and certainly many other people who grew up in that sort of school system around the world...

I posted at great length on this subject and would rather not repeat it right now (I'm pretty busy on another thread), but if you're interested in my opinion (someone who's been a Christian for quite some time), then you could read those posts first and then comment on them. I gave a link a few posts up to where the discussion started.

sorry i posted last night and im usually lazy at night, but the sun is up so ill go have a poke around

That's one reason - but I think the main one is for support and fellowship and encouragement and accountability with other Christians. Another is for worship, another is for the food

i was sort of lost with Aewionens post about to grow in him we must go to Church... i thought that even if you had never been to and never will go to Church, that wouldnt affect someones association with God...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
i agree, i guess my dislike for christianity came from school, i may have got the wrong impression then but it was put across as not only unquestionable, any questions we had that werent pro-christianity went unanswered .....

I"m sorry to hear that, Millane, but here's one Christian who has absolutely no problem thinking about and discussing questions, as long as things stay polite and considerate, as you can tell by the length of this thread!! (and the usual length of my posts!)

sorry i posted last night and im usually lazy at night, but the sun is up so ill go have a poke around

'k

i was sort of lost with Aewionens post about to grow in him we must go to Church... i thought that even if you had never been to and never will go to Church, that wouldnt affect someones association with God...

Well, it is actually a command for Christians to not forsake assembling together (somewhere in the book of Hebrews), and there's all sorts of commands about loving, helping, exhorting, admonishing, etc. each other, which takes being with at least 1 other Christian! but certainly if a church is not available, then God could work around that, IMO. (and please remember that the word "command" in the Biblical sense ALWAYS implies that it is for the commandee's very best interest, rather like a parent's command to not run onto the freeway (a negative command) or to eat healthy food in addition to "fun" food (a postive command). They aren't arbitrary commands or commands with bad intent or purpose.)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Hey you guys, I have a Youth Group project that I have to do and I need to find some Christiants who can answer these questions.

Please state your name....................................PS usernames are fine(for instance Sile*Christian says...)

please state your age.......................................

1. on a scale on 1-10 what would you rate your relationship with God?

2. Has God given you a miracle?

3. What was that miracle?

4. Are you happy with your relationship with God?

5. Why? or why not?

6.Do you "shout it out" about God?

I know, strange questians. I can explain later, when the asighnment is done.

1. I wish it were a 10 but to be honest it's more like 6-8
2. yes
3. my life and my fiance
4. I wish I were a better Christian...I hope that answers that question! so I guess no I'm not happy with my relationship with God but that is entirely my fault
5. I hate that I am weak
6. not quite sure what that means but I certainly don't deny that I am a Christian (catholic too!) and I state my beliefs often I suppose