Israel, Gaza, and the Middle East Conflict

[Lizra]

Oh my gawd! so it is...... Heavens to Murgatroid!

[Spock]

YOU ARE GETTING OFF TOPIC HERE.

WE HAVE HAD AND CAN HAVE ONCE AGAIN A TOPIC THREAD FOR POLITICS.

PLEASE STAY ON THE TOPIC TITLE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

Please note a new topic dealing with IRAN & IRAQ-PRIMARILY.

Posts from 8-15-06, pertaining to Iraq & Iran have been moved to the new thread.

[Spock]

SEVERAL OF YOU ARE JUST SPOILING FOR A BAIT AND DELETION OF POSTS
Hector is saying nothing like what you are twisting his words to say.

PLEASE DO NOT BAIT.

[Spock]

See "Muslims part 2" for posts concerning that group.

That thread is more appropriate to what's been said here and it is a long established thread.

[Spock]

and now for something less stressful

[Lief Erikson]

London has foiled another terrorist plot!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6255452.stm

Two car bombs have been defused before detonation.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...ert/index.html

[Coffeehouse]

This thread needs reviving since there are so many passionate souls on this forum

Here I've translated a letter the Norwegian author Jostein Gaarder wrote in Norway's largest newspapers during the war between Israel and Hezbollah in 2006:

-------------------

Gods chosen people
"Israel is history. We do not recognize the state of Israel any longer. There is no way back. The State of Israel has raped the world's recognition of it, and will not have peace until it puts down its arms. The State of Israel in its current form is history.

There is no way back. It is time to learn a new truth: We do not recognize the State of Israel any longer. Vi could not recognize the South African apartheid-regime, and we did not recognize the Afghan Taliban-regime. And there were many who did not recognize Saddam Hussein's Iraq or the Serb's ethnic cleansing. Now we must put our thoughts to this idea: The State of Israel in its present form is history.

We do not believe in the idea of God's chosen people. We laugh at this people's shouts and cries over its misdeeds. To behave like God's chosen people is not only stupid and arrogant, but a crime against humanity. We call it racism.

There are limits to our patience, and there are limits to our tolerance. We do not believe in Heavenly promises as excuses for occupation and apartheid. We have put the Middle Ages behind us. We laugh uncomfortably at those who believe that the God of Mother Nature and the Galaxies has chosen a certain people as his favorite and given them amusing stone tablets, burning bushes and license to kill.

We call child murderers for child murderers and we will never accept that people like that have a heavenly or historical mandate that can excuse their misdeeds. We say only: Shame on all apartheid, shame on ethnic cleansing, shame on terrorist attacks against civil populations either they be committed by Hamas, Hizballah or the State of Israel!

We admit and take it in on ourselves Europe's deep obligation for the plight of the Jews, for the cruel behaviour, the pogroms and the Holocaust. It was an historic and moral imperative that the Jews got their own home. But the State of Israel has with its uncomprimising art of war and its own despicable weapons massacred its own legitimacy. It has systematically broken international law, international convensions and numerous UN-resolutions and can not expect protection from them any longer. It has carpet bombed the world's recognition. But fear not! The times of need are over. The State of Israel has seen its Soweto.

We are at the crossroads now. There is no way back. The State of Israel has raped its own recognition and will not get peace until it puts down its arms.

May spirit and word blow the apartheid-walls of Israel into the abyss. The State of Israel does not exist. It is without defence now, without skin. May the world therefore treat its civil population with clemency. For it is not individual civilians our doomsday prophety is meant against.

We want the people of Israel good, all good, but we set forth our right to not eat Jaffa-oranges as long as they taste bitter and poisonous. It was possible to live a few years without the blue apartheidgrapes.

We do not believe that Israel mourns more over the 40 killed Lebanese children more than the three thousand years of mourning over their 40 years in the desert. We note that many Israelis celebrated triumphs such as that like they once celebrated the pests of the Lord as a 'righteous punishment' to the Egyptian people. (In that story the God of Israel behaved like an insatiable sadist). We ask ourselves if most Israelis really believe that one Israeli life is worth more than 40 palestinian or lebanese lives.

For we have seen pictures of young Israeli girls writing malicious greetings on the bombs that are dropped over the civil population of Lebanon and Palestine. Young Israeli girls are not sweet when they look joyous over the death and destruction on the other side of the front.

We do not recognize the rhetoric of the State of Israel for a second. We do not recognize the bloodlusting retributionprinciple of 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. We do not recognize the principle of 10 or 1,000 arabic eyes for 1 Israeli eye. We do not recognize collective punishment or populationreducing exercises as a political weapon. Two thousand years have gone since a Jewish rabbi criticized the age-old doctrine of 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'.

He said: 'All that you would want other to do onto you, you shall also do onto them.' We do not recognize a state that is built on anti-humanistic principles and the ruins of an archaic national-religion and war-religion. Or as Albert Schweitzer pronounced: "Humanity means to never sacrifice a human being for a cause".

We do not recognize the old Kingdom of David as guiding for how the 21st century's map of the Middle East should look like. The Jewish rabbi said two thousand years ago that the Kingdom of Heaven is not a warring resurrection of the Kingdom of David, but that the Kingdom of Heaven is inside us, among us. The Kingdom of Heaven is clemency and forgiveness.

Two thousand years have gone since the Jewish rabbi lay down the weapons and humanized age-old war rhetoric. Even during his time the first sionist terrorists operated.

For two thousand years we learned the art of humanism, but Israel won't listen. It was not the Pharasee that helped the man that lay in the wayside because he had been attacked by thieves. It was a samaritan, or what we would call a palestinian today. Because we are first human beings, after that, Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Or as the Jewish rabbi said: 'And when you greet your own fellow people, is that so great and remarkable?'
We do not accept the kidnapping of soldiers. But neither do we accept the deportation of entire groups of people or the kidnapping of legitimately elected members of Parliament or members of Government.

We recognize the State of Israel of 1948, but not that of 1967. It is the State of Israel that does not recognize, respect and bow for the legitimately recognized State of Israel of 1948. Israel wants more, more water and more towns. To achieve this, certain people want the help of God to find a final solution for the Palestinians. Palestinians have so many other countries certain Israeli politicians have said, and we have only one.

Or as the State of Israel's highest protector says: 'May God continue to bless America.' There was a young child that heard these words, turned to her mother and asked: 'Why does the President always end his speech with talk of God bless America? Why does he not say God bless the World?'

Then there was a Norwegian poet which sighed and pronounced 'Why doth Humanity move so slowly forward?' It was he that wrote so beautifully about the Jew. But he did not accept the illusion of God's Chosen People. For he called himself a Mohammedan.

We do not recognize the State of Israel, not as these words are written, not in this time of sorrow and grief.
And if the entire Israeli nation should fall on its own accord and parts of the population must flee its occupied regions, and back to yet another diaspora, then we will say: May your surroundings be filled with clemency towards you now. It is forever a crime, without excuse, to lay violent hands on refugees and people with no state. A free way for the evucating civil population which no longer has a state that can protect them. Do not shoot at the refugees! Do not aim at them! They are vulnerable as snails without their shells, as vulnerable as slow caravans of Palestinian and Lebanese refugees, defenceless as women and children and old of Qana, Gaza, Sabra and Shatila. Give these new Israeli refugees house, give them milk and honey!

Do not let an Israeli child suffer death. Too many children and civilians have been murdered already."

-------------------

[GrayMouser]

Well, I'm very glad that a Norwegian has such faith in his own self-righteousness that he can condemn an entire nation, but as a Canadian of British descent my own history is a little too close for comfort.

BTW, does Mr. Gaarder check to see the petrol in his car is not Venezuelan (FARC) Iranian (the Bahai, gays, among others) Saudi Arabian ( women, gays, Shi'ites)? I hope that, along with Jaafa-oranges, he is boycotting Chinese-made clothes and electronic equipment (Tibet, Xinjiang), that he buys no Brazilian soy-beans or coffeee(Amazonian Indians), and that he urges his fellow Europeans to stop heating with Russian gas (Chechnya), that he watches no Hollywood movies (Iraq), that he doesn't use Indonesian rubber or palm oil (New Guinea, Timor). And so on.

And if the Jews are once again tossed out into the world of homelessness and Diaspora, Mr. Gaardner sincerely hopes everyone will treat them nicely. You know, if I were Jewish, looking back at the last 2000 years, I might not be all that inclined to place all that much reliance on pious good wishes.

PS-Boycott Norwegian products! Stop the slaughter of the whales!

[Coffeehouse]

Hehe the whale-boycotting. Getting kinda old

Although I don't agree with Gaarder I can assure you the guy is not trying to be self-righteous. The issue was not every other conceivable other breaker of human rights in the world, but Israel and its double-standards.

Do you list every human rights violater in the world when you discuss a subject related to human rights? Let's be fair in the criticism

Remember, we are an oil- and gas-exporting nation

Btw, FARC is Colombian.

And concerning Jews outside of Israel. There are plenty, and they as peacefully with their surroundings for the most part. How often do you hear of Jews being followed and stigmatized on the streets of London or New York? Times change.
But again, the point Gaarder was making was not whether Jews felt they'd have an easy time outside of Israel or not, but that the double-standards Israelis are committing themselves is exactly the sort of double-standards you'd expect a people with such a history to be high above..

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I think I'm closer to GM's POV, here.

First of all, this business of 'we do not recognise' is just so much "holding my breath" as far as I'm concerned. People who start their discussion of something difficult by imagining away 60 years of conflict are being pretty arbitrary, doncha think? And silly, I'd say.

In my little village there are a number of people who fled the Holocaust, and a few more who aided those who did. (mostly Dutch, God bless them.) I know Israeli's of all kinds of ethnic and religious identity, and it's quite common for people to vacation in Israel or spend a post-grad summer on a kibbutz, or something similar.

Just as a Black American who was refused a toilet in a gas station may have a different perspective than one who has never seen that, people who saw their neighborhoods dismantled and packed onto trains for the concentration camps will need something more concrete than the expressed concern of a Norwegian intellectual (who dismisses the existance of their country) before they feel a need to change their policy to incorporate areas which, so far, have not shown much ability to even manage themselves.

Israeli reliance on weapons, that horrendous fence, the imbalance in the economy...all of these things are serious problems, and trouble every thinking person. But a new partition is not the answer. The answer, I believe, will involve a lot less posturing and quasi-religious rhetoric by all the people of the region. Israel was not alone in creating the emergency which is the Palestinian diaspora. She cannot solve it alone, either.

edited to add. I routinely see anti-Jewish prejudice and violence. It may be something simple, like a friend of mine who always referred to the State University of New York at Buffalo as "Jew-B" because he resented having Jewish holiday's off, or this recent occurance close to me. http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=8335519

[Coffeehouse]

But isn't that exactly what Gaarder is not doing. His point is that because of the last 60 years, not despite, Israel will have to re-think their way of going about this.
Which is anything but silly criticism.

I can't see precisely what victims of the Holocaust has to do with the apartheid-like behaviour of Israel in the West Bank.
We all know victims of the Holocaust, they are plentiful, either having been there themselves, or being the descendants of.

I have been to Auschwitz and sat and talked to a Norwegian Jew who was lucky enough to see freedom after 4 years in the Saxenhausen camp in Germany. Very powerful experience you know.
But this is not, and I agree with Gaarder, about putting blame on people of Judaism in general or pulling the rug on the reality of the Holocaust. You'll see Gaarder points that out.

You write that "people who saw their neighbourhoods dismantled and packed onto trains for the concentration camps will need more concrete than the expressed concern of a Norwegian intellectual". Nobody is saying they should guide their policies because of the voice of a philosophic author from Norway. Gaarder correctly points out that the international community has become impatient, the stampling on human rights abuses has gone too far.
He is not lecturing, but asking them.
Why are you doing it this way?
Why are you stamping on your own legitimacy, your own historical victimhood?
Which I think are questions that have to be asked, and Israel have to answer.
And it is not only Israel, but all the parties involved; the Palestinians, the Syrians, the Jordanians, the Americans, the Europeans, etc.

The Israelis, as Jews, have so much history to be proud and that is mostly what angers people, as to how they are falling far below what you would expect of their society, their culture, their own standards. Perfectly legitimate criticism.
As far as I can tell the letter by Gaarder only tries to point out that the Israelis have every potential to make the better of the situation, and that it's about time it happens.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

But isn't that exactly what Gaarder is not doing. His point is that because of the last 60 years, not despite, Israel will have to re-think their way of going about this.
Which is anything but silly criticism.

I can't see precisely what victims of the Holocaust has to do with the apartheid-like behaviour of Israel in the West Bank.
We all know victims of the Holocaust, they are plentiful, either having been there themselves, or being the descendants of.

I have been to Auschwitz and sat and talked to a Norwegian Jew who was lucky enough to see freedom after 4 years in the Saxenhausen camp in Germany. Very powerful experience you know.
But this is not, and I agree with Gaarder, about putting blame on people of Judaism in general or pulling the rug on the reality of the Holocaust. You'll see Gaarder points that out.

You write that "people who saw their neighbourhoods dismantled and packed onto trains for the concentration camps will need more concrete than the expressed concern of a Norwegian intellectual". Nobody is saying they should guide their policies because of the voice of a philosophic author from Norway. Gaarder correctly points out that the international community has become impatient, the stampling on human rights abuses has gone too far.
He is not lecturing, but asking them.
Why are you doing it this way?
Why are you stamping on your own legitimacy, your own historical victimhood?
Which I think are questions that have to be asked, and Israel have to answer.
And it is not only Israel, but all the parties involved; the Palestinians, the Syrians, the Jordanians, the Americans, the Europeans, etc.

The Israelis, as Jews, have so much history to be proud and that is mostly what angers people, as to how they are falling far below what you would expect of their society, their culture, their own standards. Perfectly legitimate criticism.
As far as I can tell the letter by Gaarder only tries to point out that the Israelis have every potential to make the better of the situation, and that it's about time it happens.

Coffeehouse, there's so much in this post that's inaccurate, I hardly know where to begin.

Nowhere in here does Gaarder refer to anyone else's responsibility, only to Israel's. And he starts, "Israel is history."

That's pretty aggressive. It's not "Gee guys, time to rethink this". It's "We do not recognise you." That doesn't mean, at least in English, "You don't look like yourself." It means, "You do not exist."

This whole section:The Israelis, as Jews, have so much history to be proud and that is mostly what angers people, as to how they are falling far below what you would expect of their society, their culture, their own standards. Perfectly legitimate criticism....that's crazy, and kind of offensive. First of all, Israeli's aren't Jews. The state is Jewish, but the people vary. I pointed that out before, but it bears repeating. Second, you can't make your notion of "the ideal Jew" a standard that the government of Israel has to live up to. It's like saying that the Congo has to be a happier place because of all that natural rythmn, or you can't believe China has a problem with that earthquake, because everyone there is so obedient.

I didn't start with the Holocaust, Gaarder did. I don't need the Holocaust to legitimize Israel. I don't have any European guilt for it, and I don't see Israel as a present from Europe to apologise for Germany, Russia, or anywhere else. Britian dumped a problem they could no longer administer on the rest of the world...and if they hadn't stolen it in the first place, they wouldn't have been drawing imaginary partitions that helped precipitate the problem.

He's not 'asking' anyone anything. It's a polemic.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Coffeehouse, there's so much in this post that's inaccurate, I hardly know where to begin.

Hope to see the parts that are inaccurate, and then an explanation as to why you believe so

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Nowhere in here does Gaarder refer to anyone else's responsibility, only to Israel's. And he starts, "Israel is history."
That's pretty aggressive. It's not "Gee guys, time to rethink this". It's "We do not recognise you." That doesn't mean, at least in English, "You don't look like yourself." It means, "You do not exist."

And I quote from Gaarder's text, how you read it is up to you:
"We say only: Shame on all apartheid, shame on ethnic cleansing,
shame on terrorist attacks against civil populations either they
be committed by Hamas, Hizballah or the State of Israel!"
and
"We recognize the State of Israel of 1948, but not that of 1967."
and
"We do not accept the kidnapping of soldiers. But neither do we accept the deportation of entire groups of people or the kidnapping of legitimately
elected members of Parliament or members of Government."

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

This whole section:The Israelis, as Jews, have so much history to be proud and that is mostly what angers people, as to how they are falling far below what you would expect of their society, their culture, their own standards. Perfectly legitimate criticism....that's crazy, and kind of offensive. First of all, Israeli's aren't Jews. The state is Jewish, but the people vary. I pointed that out before, but it bears repeating. Second, you can't make your notion of "the ideal Jew" a standard that the government of Israel has to live up to. It's like saying that the Congo has to be a happier place because of all that natural rythmn, or you can't believe China has a problem with that earthquake, because everyone there is so obedient.

Then you misunderstood my meaning. My underlying point was that Israel first of all is a nation founded on the belief that the Jews should have their own nation. Obviously not every in present-day Israel are Jewish. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslim Israelis, and certainly many other denominations. But the founding of Israel in 1948 was founded on the idea of a Jewish State.
Second, the Israeli democratic dream and the impressive nation-building the Israelis commenced after 1948 was given a severe blow when the Israelis decided to not withdraw from the occupied territories after the 6-day war in 1967, which the international community demanded that they do. They chose not to and coupled with the invasion into Lebanon in 1982, you have seen the rise of the intifada by radical Palestinian and Lebanese groups, including Hamas and Hezbollah. The bottom-line is that while the war of 1967 was a perfectly legitimate defensive war by Israel (That's my view), they should have withdrawn, and because they didn't they have now find themselves imposing strict war-time policies on the people of Palestine which has further deepened the anger, made life in the West Bank and Gaza a living hell, with over 100 days of curfew in most cities in the course of a single year, and turned the economy into a joke. It can't even be described as an economy, it's a stone-age market place.

These policies which often can rightly seem as if taken right out of an apartheid-textbook, like the intentional wearing out of the civilian populations, directly contradict everything Israel should stand for, and everything it was founded on. That's the problem, not that Israel as a state exists. You'll see Gaarder makes it clear, that he recognizes 1948-Israel, but not 1967-Israel. The letter is not a straight-forward policy paper on Israel, but a artistic letter, with lots of metaphores and 'sayings', and so he plays with words, and the 1948, not 1967 legitimacy is the entire point of the letter. That the Israelis have a very good chance of making right what they've made wrong. And nobody in their right mind is expecting the Israelis to go it all alone, but it's obvious that it is not Israel that lives in the West Bank and Gaza, but the Palestinians. It's also quite clear that there is a UN resolution from 1967, signed by the international community, which demands Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, and you'll find many Israeli scholars who have demanded this as well. That Israel pull back, and re-affirm their moral ground, which is that of legitimate state territory, not occupied ones.

Nobody believes Congo is happier because they can dance, and nobody believes Chinese are by nature obedient. I have been in both countries thankyou-very-much

The most telling part of Gaarder's text is in fact this one:
"To achieve this, certain people want the help of God to find a final solution for the Palestinians."
The people of course that he is referring to are the settlers on the West Bank and how their unproportionate sway over Israeli occupation policy is. They keep lobbying for new settler homes, and more settler rights that in the end only deepen the anger among Palestinians and further trample on their rights.

[The Gaffer]

OK, as a European leftie, I tend to sympathise more with the Palestinians too. (It's interesting that the US seems to side more with the Israelis.)

However, you have to view the Israeli attitude to the occupied territories in the context of how, at the time they were occupied, just about every neighbouring state viewed Israel as an illegitimate state. Not only that, they vastly outnumber Israel, and launched military attacks against them. Not surprising that they should be aggressive. Small man syndrome writ large.

It seems that this attitude has become deeply embedded in the national psyche, and it is easy to shift it from one focus to another. So even if the neighbours are less openly hostile these days (which they are), it shifts onto terrorist groups. If one terrorist group declares a ceasefire, it shifts onto another, or renegade rocket attacks. You'll note how the language developed by the US after 9/11 has been deployed to facilitate this.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, the military attitude has plenty of "evidence" to support it. It's likely that the only way states like Egypt came to accept Israel is because they got their arses handed to them on the battlefield. More recently, terrorist attacks have gone down now that the Palestinians are physically shut out from Israeli areas.

To move forward, this mentality has to be broken, and this is where the US has failed (since they are the only country really able to influence Israel). Bush made some promising remarks about a two-state solution, but they have been proven empty. How about tying some conditionality to the vast sums of aid they get?

So, whilst at the end of the day Israel was founded upon the mass eviction of millions of innocent bystanders, they need to feel secure in order to progress and they need to have a motive. This sort of article doesn't contribute towards either, but then at least it provokes discussion.

[Coffeehouse]

A good point Gaffer, and let me say that there are many parts of Gaarder's letter that I can't agree with it. There was also an outcry of public debate in Norway when the letter was published, including reactions from the Israeli Embassy. And this author is no fool, I think he very well knew that the way he wrote it it would unleash discussion, but then again I think that was why he wrote it.

Returning to Israel's stance and how vulnerable it feels, I completely agree, it has been attacked on all fronts and obviously can't be expected to lie down without lifting a finger. The Israelis find themselves though to be in the position of an occupying power, and dealing out collective punishment in retaliation to rocket attacks simply isn't sustainable. Swathes of refugees, inhumane living conditions and infinite checkpoints feed the perpetual cycle of anger, fear and hopelessness of the Palestinian people. Let's not forget that Hamas came about in the 80's, as a backlash.

The Palestinians though have to show leadership and although it's pretty hard to expect, they also have to show restraint because the path of intifada has no yielded any results except deepen the fears of Israeli citizens, who rightfully believe that if the West Bank is let free it will be the high-ground of attacks into Israel. But then the Israelis have to understand that as long as Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza are weakened by military strikes and inadequate infrastructure, which Israel has bombed to pieces during the last decades, they will not be able to organize a successful Palestinian society. Israel must see this.

And the one nation that really has the influence to put immense pressure on all parties it the United States of America, but not much has happened during Bush' tenure, for some obvious reasons, like invading Iraq and swelling the number of refugees in the Middle East to yet another few million people on top of the 4 million Palestinian refugees.

With real leadership from the White House in 2009 there will hopefully be a revival, and a situation where Israel is not given a blank cheque, which they sometimes seem to believe they have. When G. W. Bush gives a speech in the Knesset, you'd like to see him giving a speech in Jordan or Egypt (nobody expects him to stand in the middle of Gaza) to the Palestinians. But this seems to be too much to ask.

[The Gaffer]

The collective punishment thing is the worst aspect IMO. That has to stop. Imagine if the British in Northern Ireland had shelled indiscrimately the Catholic areas of Belfast after a bomb outrage? Completely disgraceful and, in the context, the surprise is that you don't get more attacks from the Palestinians, as they have no other instrument at their disposal.

They have to engage with Hamas. Once the "extremists" get the majority, you have no choice but to deal with them. Tasting real power tends to soften the extremities in any case, as people suddenly have to think about running utilities as well as wiring fuses. This would split the hardliners. If Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley can share a joke, and real political power, anyone can.

At the moment though, all any extremist loony needs to do to derail any given peace iniative is fire off a couple of rockets. So, Israel has to stop reacting with air strikes and tanks when these things happen.

[Valandil]

It's all a very complex situation. For it's whole 60-year history, modern Israel has probably felt surrounded and isolated. And it's easy to see why. And I think they feel that a show of strength is the only way for them to survive. On the other hand, I think they have gotten into a habit of reacting too harshly, and get away with doing too much at times.

I heard an interesting thought a few years ago though, and want to toss it out to see what the rest of you think of it. Is this a true statement or not?:

"If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be no war.
If the Israelis laid down their arms, there would be no Israel."

Things have gotten so jumbled even since I first heard this statement that we should take the 'Palestinians' part as meaning all those groups in the region who are antagonistic toward Israel.

But what do you think of that statement?

[Coffeehouse]

I think that's an interesting take on it. But what if we did this to it:

"If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be no Palestine.
If the Israelis laid down their arms, there would be no Israel."

Were the actions of Israel merely a mirror of Palestine aggression the first statement would seem accurate. But the fact that Israel actively pursues a settler policy that pushes for an expansion of settler areas in the West Bank shows me the Palestinians would be no closer to a Palestinian state if they did not do anything at all. In the end, none of the two parties would be willing to lay down their arms completely, as Israel is engaged with both Hezbollah and the Syrians (which would mean Israel will never lay down their arms).

But the Palestinians must stop their rocket attacks. It's doing them no good. But that must, and this is where many people disagree, be pre-empted by an Israeli show of good-will. Visibly improving the daily lives of Palestinians. Only then will Palestinians have hope.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Palestinians though have to show leadership and although it's pretty hard to expect, they also have to show restraint because the path of intifada has no yielded any results except deepen the fears of Israeli citizens, who rightfully believe that if the West Bank is let free it will be the high-ground of attacks into Israel.

Okay, here's something I can agree with. The Palestinians have been miserable government. They finally got a limited form of self-government, and immediately repudiated it, looted their own infrastructure, and continued destroying all of the neighborhood they could reach. It was clearly far more important for Fatah and Hamas to finish figuring out who'd get first shot at sharing out the loot than to actually govern. The EU issued a report on official fraud in 2005, if you'll remember, a banner year for Palestinian efforts to rebuild their country, anyway. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ (Not mentioning the desecration of the synagogues, which did not make the news, around here)

You may have been to the Congo, Coffeehouse, but I'm darn sure I talk to more Israeli's and more Jews, on a daily basis. There are probably more Jews in my immediate neighborhood than there are in all of Norway...perhaps that contributes to our difference in perspective.

But you still haven't addressed the "confusion" (I put it politely) between "Jews" and "the state of Israel" in your posts. They are not the same thing. I have issues with some actions taken by the Israeli government. For the record, I also have issues with actions taken by the government of the US, and I even have a few with actions taken by the government of Norway. But I don't attribute those (as Mr. Gaarden does) to anything about race, using classically anti-Semitic stereotypes.

You say " the Israelis have to understand... " How come? You do remember, don't you, that Israel GAVE all that land back once, (or more, depending on who is counting) after the first time they had to defend themselves. How often will I give back the bat you hit me with? Israel is far more forgiving than I would be.

The UN resolution to return to the 1948 boundaries? Please. The first political science report I ever wrote was on the "Zionism is racism" resolution. I read it in the paper, and, just out of curiosity, mapped the voting on a world map. Do it sometime, if you want to learn something about the Cold War. It makes a nice graphic.

And the one nation that really has the influence to put immense pressure on all parties it the United States of America,

Why is that? Why is this MY baby? When the US involves itself in the rest of the world, people complain. When we don't, surprise, people complain. Nice.

but not much has happened during Bush' tenure, for some obvious reasons, like invading Iraq and swelling the number of refugees in the Middle East to yet another few million people on top of the 4 million Palestinian refugees.

another point of agreement. Invading Iraq was wrong. Um, now how does that make either Israel or the US responsible for "Palestinian" refugees? There are far more Arab Israelis then there ever were Arab citizens of the area before partition. They left, at the urging of Arab leaders, and found themselves stateless. My ancestors left Ireland, and missed boasting rights for the Irish economic recovery...not to mention all that extra cash. Do ya think they kept my room ready for me, over there? I know just where I left it.

[Coffeehouse]

"You may have been to the Congo, Coffeehouse, but I'm darn sure I talk to more Israeli's and more Jews, on a daily basis"
This isn't a competition dear. And I might as well ask you how many Palestinians do you talk to on a daily basis?

"But you still haven't addressed the 'confusion' (I put it politely) between 'Jews' and the 'State of Israel' in your posts"
I don't think I understand what you want me to answer. What confusion?

"But I don't attribute (as Mr. Gaarder does) to anything about race, using classically anti-Semitic stereotypes"
Race? Anti-Semitism? Where do you have that from?
(I can assure you, Gaarder would never use the word race. That word is taboo in my country. Most Norwegian believe it's a made-up term. Race is a useless term.)

We can debate first war if you like, but the notion that the Israelis are showing great clemency by not simply annexing the West Bank and turning it into a part of Greater Israel is pretty far-fetched. I don't any of us believe that the Israelis have a right to deny Palestinians a state, and the Palestinians can not be held accountable to the madmen-decisions of the gov't of Egypt, Syria and Jordan made in 1967.

"Why is that? Why is this MY baby?"
You really don't know why the USA have considerable influence to change the situation on the ground? If you take a look at the 'aid' the USA is giving Israel, without conditions, every year, you'll see why the USA is a major player. But this doesn't really need saying. Nobody is forcing the USA to get involved so heavily in Israel, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Kuwait. It's a decision taken by your country, and on the part of the Israeli-Palestinian question the USA has considerable positive potential to help, along with the EU (Britain and France share a burden of responsibility) and the international community.

"They left, at the urging of Arab leaders, and found themselves stateless. My ancestors left Ireland, and missed boasting rights for the Irish economic recovery...not to mention all that extra cash. Do ya think they kept my room ready for me, over there? I know just where I left it."
Let's not stigmatize the plight of the Palestinians though. The life in Gaza and West Bank is a living hell.