Aragorn's Fall...any changes of opinion out there?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I did!

[Diamond]

As did I, but I think if I had read all the books before seeing the movies I would have forgot about Arwen by the time she came to Minas Tirith to marry Aragorn. Seriously, she's mentioned before that moment, what, twice?

Its just a movie -- that's why they say "based on the books by J.R.R. Tolkien" (paraphrase), and not "A carbon copy of the books by J.R.R. Tolkien to the silver screen".

Di

[Wayfarer]

But the entire depth of tolkien's middle earth comes from the fact that everything is important in itself, not as a literary or plot device. Tolkien already had a good idea of what had happened throughout the history, and thus he didn't need to constantly make things up as he wrote his novels. Aragorn and Arwen is a classic example: their story has merits in itself, not merely as a way to advance the 'real' plot.

I am puzzled, though. If PJ really wanted to convey the story of tolkiens aragorn and arwen, why didn't he include more stuff from the appendices? The scene in lothlorien, particularly, would have been very good on film.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
OK, BB, I don't understand: You say that PJ gave us a better understanding of Arwen then Tolkien did: How is that possible?

To put it simply: Jackson has spotlighted Arwen in the actual story more than Tolkien did. Jackson is highlighting her feelings and motivations--and making her real for the audience. Tolkien did not.

[Cirdan]

The Arwen story was never part of the main story; merely as sidebar to it. The relationship has no real impact on the story. PJs emphasis on it only makes it stick out like a sore thumb. We are given no real compelling backround for the relationship.

Take, for example the love story in Braveheart. We are given a backround of a childhood encounter during William Wallace's father's funeral. The gift of the flower is a cherished moment and a motivating factor in the young man's life. Later they reunite and there is some courtship before the dramatic separation.

Even the princess' love is cast with a backround of an arranged marriage in a foreign court, someone who feel kinship, as an outsider, with Wallace.

The relationship between Aragorn and Arwen is summed up is a conversation or two. If you go to the extended version of FotR you find him saying, yet again, that he would rather she just get on the boat with the rest of the elves. Yes, it is obvious that this is "character building" for Aragorn; willing to sacrifice for her best interest. Hardly a passionate decision by a man is love. Again in TT he is returning the evenstar and trying to give her the brush off.

The budding relationship with Eowen on the other hand is much better in the context of the story. It never disrupts the flow of the story, as the Arwen scenes do. The interaction between the two is casual during the main plot. She is the ever suffering kinfolk of the king trying to hold things together. It seems a more natural relationship in the flow of events.

A love story must have some compelling circumstance (Capulets and the Montagues, Heathcliff on the Moors, etc). I don't see missing the last? boat to Valinor as very dramatic. At least some part of the story must hinge on what happens in the relationship. It seems to be turned on it's head in this case. If the story has a happy ending and all the other plotlines work out, then maybe they can get together after all.

The emphasis in the film on the romance weakens the story over all. It should have been a bit more subtle, but instead it felt like a pothole. Too liitle screen time to be a good love story and too much for an incidental story.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
A love story must have some compelling circumstance...I don't see missing the last boat to Valinor as very dramatic. At least some part of the story must hinge on what happens in the relationship...The emphasis in the film on the romance weakens the story over all. It should have been a bit more subtle, but instead it felt like a pothole. Too little screen time to be a good love story and too much for an incidental story.

If a love story about an elf woman who sacrifices her immortality for the mortal man she loves isn't dramatic I don't know what is.

One of the key "wrap-up" feel-good scenes in ROTK will be the crowning of the King and the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen. If the audience isn't given enough of Arwen to identify with her, then the wedding loses much of its emotional tug. It would be like watching the ending of Star Wars with the Princess handing out the medals to people we don't care about. It worked for the audience because we cared about Leia, Han, and Luke.

To put it another way, without PJ's focus on Arwen and the Arwen-Aragorn love story, the audience watches the wedding and thinks "this is nice, Aragorn has a Queen now" rather than an emotional "aww, these two star-crossed lovers never gave up hope despite the odds and now we get to witness their all-too-brief moment of joy and happiness." I see a HUGE difference between those two perspectives.

I hate to say it......but next year at this time, I'll be saying "See? I told you so."

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, I think that the Elves consider their immortality less of a gift than a doom.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Actually, I think that the Elves consider their immortality less of a gift than a doom.

In the books, and especially in the films, Elrond wasn't too keen on his daughter sacrificing her immortality for anything less than the throne of Gondor and Arnor. So whatever the official elf view of immortality, it is clear it is considered precious.

[Artanis]

I don't think Elrond's feelings about Arwen marrying Aragorn in the book was as you put it, BB. There were probably several reasons why he would rather have it differently. I think his main motive was not to prevent her becoming a mortal, but that he understood how much his daughter would grieve at Aragorn's death.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
One of the key "wrap-up" feel-good scenes in ROTK will be the crowning of the King and the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen. If the audience isn't given enough of Arwen to identify with her, then the wedding loses much of its emotional tug.

Exactly why it won't be a complete success. Her role is stoll too minor to build enough anticipation. If RotK is backloaded with even more Arwen, then it may help the wedding but still detract even more from the main story. The problem with expanding minor parts is length and pacing problems.

...and, right or wrong, I'm sure you will still say, "I told you so."

[LuthienTinuviel]

first of all, why are we even focusing this much on the wedding? the imprtant thing is : aragorn gets crowned. the wedding and arwen and the whole love story are in the deep background. the story is about frodo getting the ring to mt doom and the actoins of setting up the right circumstances for him to do this. PJ has blown up two small peices of the plot and im afraid he will not focus on the real story.

To put it simply: Jackson has spotlighted Arwen in the actual story more than Tolkien did. Jackson is highlighting her feelings and motivations--and making her real for the audience. Tolkien did not.

and if you had actually read the books, and understood them, like ANY fan, purist or not did, then you would have gotten the same meaning out of the story. just because tolkien doesn't lay it out on a platter and spoon feed it to you like PJ does, doesn't mean he neglected it.

shallower minds go for the easier way. hmmm

Actually, I think that the Elves consider their immortality less of a gift than a doom.

your right. well, maybe not doomity doom doom, but certainly not a gift.

So whatever the official elf view of immortality, it is clear it is considered precious.

because any LIFE is precious, no matter what the end of it, or length. to be alive is something to be cherished, anyone with four braincells knows that. (well maybe they don't, beacuse i don't think that anyone could survive on four brain cells, except BB.)

i think youve got three braincells, BB.... too bad that their all FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
first of all, why are we even focusing this much on the wedding? the important thing is : aragorn gets crowned. the wedding and arwen and the whole love story are in the deep background.

This is true in the book and I can understand why the wedding wouldn't mean much to many Tolkienites---yet. But I will bet the farm with anyone here that the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen will be the crowning "high point" to the three films. It will become the equivalent to the medal giving ceremony at the end of Star Wars.

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
and if you had actually read the books, and understood them, like ANY fan, purist or not did, then you would have gotten the same meaning out of the story.

As usual, you are absolutely right, LT. But I wasn't referring to the meaning of the story of Arwen & Aragorn, I meant the emotion of it. Maybe I was unique when I read ROTK, but I didn't read about the wedding and say, "awwwwww, I am SO HAPPY for Arwen. She never lost hope--and now her and Aragorn are FINALLY together."

...yeah, I know I'm a softie. But I am looking forward to it. I believe the wedding will provide the film's "upbeat" emotional climax before the final tear-jerking ending at the Grey Havens.

[Cirdan]

Yes, the cheesy sitcom go-to when all other plots are used up; the wedding! At least they can't get trapped in an elevator. It's still just pandering; an attempt to woo more female viewers. As if the story wasn't female friendly before (handsome men in armour- women hate that)

Does the story need more fluff? I guess if that is what you like.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Yes, the cheesy sitcom go-to when all other plots are used up; the wedding!

The wedding is from the book, Cirdan. If you want to blame this plot device on somebody, it's Tolkien's fault.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

some things they shouldn've left out, but i thought aragorns fall was good

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The wedding is from the book, Cirdan. If you want to blame this plot device on somebody, it's Tolkien's fault.

Except it isn't a very important part of the book. It garners less than a page and is just a plot device to bring together the other players from Lothlorien and Rivendell. Arwen exists only as a part of Aragorn's story. You have read the book, right? Tolkien relegated the love story to the appendices for a reason.

[Elvellyn]

AND HALDIR DIDN'T DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know!!!!! And the elves werent even there! The Last Alliance was called the Last Alliance because it was the Last Alliance!!!

[Elvellyn]

And Arwen had a much more important part in he book than you suggest. Aragorn was totally stuck on her. If they hadnt gotten married, I doubt Aragorn would have married anyone else and then he would have no kids which means no heirs which means no king which means Gondor falls and then everything will have been pointless.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not necessarily. The Kings stopped before, but the Stewards stepped in. I expect Faramir would have become the new Steward.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Elvellyn
And Arwen had a much more important part in he book than you suggest. Aragorn was totally stuck on her. If they hadnt gotten married, I doubt Aragorn would have married anyone else and then he would have no kids which means no heirs which means no king which means Gondor falls and then everything will have been pointless.

Exactly! It's needed for the heir. The wedding itself is not even described, except the arrival of the larger characters of Elrond and Galadriel. It is a nice story but it is superlous to the ideas Tolkien sought to convey, which is why he left a great deal of the love story to the appendix description. Historically important, but not critical to the plot of LotR. The actual ceremony is not even described in the book. Other than the description of the weather and the arrival of the guests, the wedding is described with one sentence, so the wedding is just as important to the plot as the Pukel-men.