Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[MasterMothra]

my resistance is futile, you are right,


arg! i am an elven warrior, what devilry is this?

the irony is overwhelming.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
my resistance is futile, you are right,


arg! i am an elven warrior, what devilry is this?

the irony is overwhelming.

When you reach 500 posts, you may change it to what ever evil title you like.

[Lief Erikson]

Hmm, I'm over 500 posts. How do you change your title?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Hmm, I'm over 500 posts. How do you change your title?

Oops! Sorry I took so long to answer Lief. Just let me know what you want your title to be, and I will wave my majic wand and change it for you.

[Wayfarer]

*AHEM*

Although it's a little late, I think there's something I should add to your discussion.

I've noticed posts mentioning 'punishment' ofr the excercise of free will. This is an error. In fact, I think that the whole idea of retribution as such is severely flawed. What you must bear in mind is that the negative consequence is not there to enforce the rule, the rule is there to prevent the negative consequence.

Rule: Don't play in the street.
Reason: You might get hit by a car.

Now... does anyone want to argue that cars are there to keep children from playing in the streets? It's ridiculous!

The evil consequences are not the result of some agency working to enforce The Rules, but of the evil actions which the rules are set in place to prevent.

Look at melkor: The deeper he fell, the more he was consumeed by his own evil, and the more hateful and miserable he became. This was not a punishment for his rebellion against illuvatar, it was a consequence of it. Because all of creation is made to work in a certain way, and to seek otherwise is corruption.

I think this is what he means when he says 'everyone shall know their part'-each being will understand exactly what he is supposed to do, and that it is the best way.

[Ñólendil]

Well said my friend, and unusually sufferable. I think you're losing your touch!

[Lief Erikson]

Look at melkor: The deeper he fell, the more he was consumeed by his own evil, and the more hateful and miserable he became. This was not a punishment for his rebellion against illuvatar, it was a consequence of it. Because all of creation is made to work in a certain way, and to seek otherwise is corruption.

I agree with you about Melkor, but there is justice and punishment by Ilúvatar in Middle Earth. I'll use Numenor as an example. The sinking of their home was a deliberate act by Ilúvatar to punish them for their sin.

Sure, the don't run out on the street, and look both ways before going situation works in some cases, but there are others where it doesn't. Take murder, for example. Laws against it are not for the good of the would be murderer, they're for the good of the victim. And if the law is broken, then there is a price to be paid.

Now... does anyone want to argue that cars are there to keep children from playing in the streets? It's ridiculous!

In your example it is ridiculous, but plenty of other examples can be shown which demonstrate (I think more accurately) the reality of the situation that is going on.

[Wayfarer]

I wonder if you understand the situation with ar-pharazon, because it was certainly not retribution. Let's recap:

Ar pharazon decides to invade and conqueor valinor.
He assembles the largest army ever seen.
He sets sail.
He lands on valinor.
The valar call upon eru.
Eru destroys ar-pharazon's army, and breaks the world so that noone else can follow him.

Now I think it is clear that this is not an instance of punishment so much as of defense. The valar do not want to fight, so the call on eru. Eru buries the army, and splits the earth to prevent future attacks.

It should be noted that the valar's own defense mechanisms were far less humane-the shadowy isles cast a spell of sleep on mortal men, and hte sea was treacherous enough that most would have died before then. Eru simple rendered the incursion possible.

What happened to the numenoreans is a pretty clear cut example of morgoth's corruption: They accepted sauron's teachings, and began the slow decline which led to thier ultimate destruction. Notice that the faithful, who were not corrupteed, survived.

It is rather like a shakespearean tragedy-the catastrophe is a nescessary result from the choices that are made.

the fact is that when any party acts in the correct way, they are better off.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Eru destroys ar-pharazon's army, and breaks the world so that noone else can follow him.

Now I think it is clear that this is not an instance of punishment so much as of defense. The valar do not want to fight, so the call on eru. Eru buries the army, and splits the earth to prevent future attacks.

The drowning of Numenor was not necessary to prevent future attacks. It would be sufficient to remove Valinor from the world. So why destroy Numenor? Perhaps the intention wasn't to punish the Numenoreans, but to set Sauron back, gaining time enough for Elves and Men to form the Last Alliance against him.

[Lief Erikson]

I agree, Artanis.

Ar pharazon decides to invade and conqueor valinor.
He assembles the largest army ever seen.
He sets sail.
He lands on valinor.
The valar call upon eru.
Eru destroys ar-pharazon's army, and breaks the world so that noone else can follow him.

Now I think it is clear that this is not an instance of punishment so much as of defense. The valar do not want to fight, so the call on eru. Eru buries the army, and splits the earth to prevent future attacks.

I never said anything against Ilúvatar's defending his own, and I agree that choosing the wrong course brings about eventual ruin for the one who does it, in Tolkien's works.

However, you cannot eliminate from the equation the necessary variable of punishment. The Numenoreans were punished for their pride and wickedness, and Ar-Pharazon for coming up against Ilúvatar's own. The good who do what is right are those that are eventually upheld and brought out on the top, however long evil is allowed to endure (Free will), it still ends up being defeated. And it is because of Ilúvatar's character. Ilúvatar's character is righteous and doesn't tolerate evil. He allows it because to prevent it would demolish free will, which is a great and beautiful gift. But if someone chooses the course of evil, they have to be willing to take the consequences. Sometimes Ilúvatar uses others to bring about his final judgement. From the small (Frodo) to the great (The Valar's attack on Morgoth in the War of Wrath), Ilúvatar consistantly is against evil and punishes it.

Your opinions are sound, Wayfarer, and you are right in noting that there are consequences for evil. But the punishment aspect is strong in this as well, and is the reason why there are consequences for evil. If there were no punishment, there would be no cars to slam into the child that walks out onto the road.

[MasterMothra]

what does evil enduring have to do with free will? you can have free will without allowing evil, evil is something that eru, or god for that matter, allows to exist.

in "heaven" there is free will without evil. if god allows this in heaven, then why not on earth? the reason why is that he allows it, it has nothing to do with free will.

[Lief Erikson]

Actually, Satan was in heaven but he turned to evil. God didn't forbid it there either. But born again believer walked loyally with God throughout his or her life before coming to heaven, and God rooted out the evil in that believer. The old nature God tears out by the roots, and replaces with a new nature, which is holy and perfect. Thus, Jesus came down to Earth to fulfill the law. He fulfills the law by making the law something that it is our nature to abide by. Our nature isn't sin anymore (Though we still are human and prone to error), and God forgives the sin that we do commit. Those who are saved are loyal warriors for God, and he knows the human heart. No evil is allowed in heaven and probably none will be done there, as everyone who would do evil doesn't have God in their hearts, and wouldn't have been allwed their in the first place. So everyone is sorted out on the Day of Judgement, and no evil is likely to happen there, even though I think it could happen there.

Satan fell "like lightning from heaven," punished for his complete and utter evil with eternal damnation. We have the ability to do evil, as a part of complete free will, both in heaven and on Earth.

These opinions largely are maintainable as regards Tolkien's world as well. Ilúvatar, by allowing evil grants all creatures complete free will, and free will is a beautiful and wonderful gift. Taking some of it away would be to diminish his creations by making it not complete free will. But wouldn't everyone be happier without this complete free will? Maybe, but Ilúvatar/God knows best. The afterlife in the Silmarillion is less revealed I think than the one in the Bible, but I think that the resistance of temptation's evils and the steadfast striving for righteousness (In the Silmarillion) is something that is rewarded and proves the mettle of the heart. Therefore Ilúvatar can accept those who truly are good, and doesn't simply "make," by an act of power everyone good.

We aren't God, and don't know his full design in permitting evil to exist. However, simply because from our own limited perspectives we cannot see his design, we cannot judge his character. We can say that this is what we would do if we were God, but we cannot judge him only from what we see and hear, since our perspective is so limited.

One way that you can broaden your perspective is by seeking him and finding out for yourself whether God truly exists or not. By asking him to reveal himself to you (and not giving way to your imagination, but truly waiting for a definite response) can you begin to understand him. And then coming to know him better will follow through the walk with him that will progress, and he will answer your questions.

[Sister Golden Hair]

We aren't God, and don't know his full design in permitting evil to exist. However, simply because from our own limited perspectives we cannot see his design, we cannot judge his character. We can say that this is what we would do if we were God, but we cannot judge him only from what we see and hear, since our perspective is so limited.

One way that you can broaden your perspective is by seeking him and finding out for yourself whether God truly exists or not. By asking him to reveal himself to you (and not giving way to your imagination, but truly waiting for a definite response) can you begin to understand him. And then coming to know him better will follow through the walk with him that will progress, and he will answer your questions.

Please keep your religious veiws in check. Stay on topic, and don't preach religion.

[Wayfarer]

And it is because of Ilúvatar's character. Ilúvatar's character is righteous and doesn't tolerate evil. He allows it because to prevent it would demolish free will, which is a great and beautiful gift.

My viking freind:

I have some small disagreement with you on the concept of evil. You say that evil is something that Ilúvatar doesn't tolerate because he is righteous. He allows it for a time because do do otherwise would negate free will, but it eventually catches up with and destroys those who practice it. I think this is a misconception.

It is much more fitting to say that Ilúvatar wishes us to abstain from evil because he knows that evil actions will eventually lead to destruction. He does allow self destructive behavior because he has gifted his children (esp humans) with free will. They may choose the good way, or the bad way. You will notice that elves (who are more subject to fate) are almost unilaterally good. They have an innate inclination to do the right thing.

The good who do what is right are those that are eventually upheld and brought out on the top, however long evil is allowed to endure (Free will), it still ends up being defeated.

But is this a cause or an effect? Is evil always defeated because it is evil, or is it evil because it is always defeated?

The One, being the creator of all things, wishes for his creation to act in the manner which he has engineered them for, because deviation in any other way is harmful to both the individual and the group. However, not content to rule over automatons (as melkor was), he gave each individual free will. Those that choose good will be saved, but those that choose anything else will destroy themselves.

what does evil enduring have to do with free will? you can have free will without allowing evil, evil is something that eru, or god for that matter, allows to exist.

Your supposition is both true and false.

You can excercise your free-will within the bounds of goodness. Certainly the elves did. But the elves have less free will than men do. If humans could never choose something bad, there is really little free choice at all. What's the point, if all answers are correct?

[Rían]

Hi Wayfarer! I've seen and enjoyed your posts (and agree with the majority of them, BTW ), but I don't believe I've posted with you before, so hello!

Lief and Wayfarer, let me throw in a comment from a different perspective regarding consequences and punishment. The perspective is that of a parent - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that either of you two are parents

As a parent, I am in a position (and rightfully so) of authority over my young children. One of my main jobs is to discipline them. Now when people think of that word, they usually think of the negative aspect, but a large part of discipline is the positive aspect - instruction and encouragement and praise and rewards! However, re the negative side of discipline - consequences and punishment - I think that you are both right, and I'll try to explain how in the following paragraphs.

I'm a big believer in letting kids feel the consequences of their choices (of course, appropriately filtered by the parent, considering age and other factors, such as safety!) Now there are two kinds of consequences - natural and artificial.

Wayfarer is pretty much talking about what I would call natural consequences. For example, if one of the kids had a very breakable toy, say a doll with a porcelin head, I would sit down with her and say "Because this toy is breakable, what do you think would be a good way to play with it?" We'd talk over some scenarios, then come up with something like "You may play with it sitting down on the carpet or on your bed" or something like that. Now if she grabbed it up and ran outside and dropped it on the driveway and it broke, that would be a natural consequence of her disobedience. I would mourn with her over the loss of her toy, but show how its loss was a direct result of her choice to disobey, and I would not buy her another one immediately - we would have to work out some way of earning it.

Now Lief is talking about what I would call artificial consequences. If the kids just got a bunch of Legos and they were playing with them, and my daughter's older brother snatched some of the ones she was playing with away from her, I would tell him not to do that again or there will be a consequence for his disobedience. If he does it again, I would apply an artificial consequence - I would tell him "well, since you are not able to play nicely with your sister, you lose the privilege of playing with these new Legos for today." See, there would have been no natural consequence for his disobedience because his sister is smaller than he is, so I, as the rightful authority figure, must apply an artificial consequence that is related to his choice to disobey.

Do you see how punishment and consequences are not mutually exclusive, and how both are needed?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Rian, will you adopt me?

Btw, what do you think of my sig? For three years, I never had one, and now that I do nobody notices.

Wasn't he just the sweetest guy?

[Rían]

LOL!

Now are you aware of the consequences, both natural and artificial? (and I'm really cranky in the morning, too )

Hey, I just got back tonight from a weekend getaway with "the girls" - and what is this???? **** A SIG for SGH??!!! **** WOW!! I love it!! Oh, what a guy!! "North away....." *sigh*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
LOL!

Now are you aware of the consequences, both natural and artificial? (and I'm really cranky in the morning, too )

Hey, I just got back tonight from a weekend getaway with "the girls" - and what is this???? **** A SIG for SGH??!!! **** WOW!! I love it!! Oh, what a guy!! "North away....." *sigh*

Hey, artificail all the way. As long as you have a pot of coffee brewing in the morning mom, I promise I'll be good.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I am going North away, to find him.

[Rían]

Hey, MM, what's this?? An elven warrior?? (hee hee) But the big question is: Are you "hotter" than Legolas?? I know it's your FAVORITE thing to discuss!! *gag!*

(I'm sorry, I just COULDN'T pass up the opportunity to tease you about that! I can't stand those threads either!)

(although I DO have an opinion on the matter..... )

(not about YOU and Legolas though, because I don't know what you look like - I think it was Aragorn and Legolas that you mentioned)

(oh how silly!)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Rian, have you been sipping on my beer when I wasn't looking?