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Old 11-22-2008, 03:14 AM   #141
Noble Elf Lord
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Fading is the biggest Elven problem there is, much like early death is for Men.

In the original design of Eru all Arda was supposed to be much like Valinor, suitable for Elves, where they could live happily till the End of Time. But Arda had been marred by Melkor, which broke the design of Elvish immortality: in Arda marred, Elves slowly and inevitably fade, their bodies gradually becoming invisible.
First they appear like sad shadows of their former self, until at last they are naught but wraiths (much like the nazgul, in fact, but not evil). Only in Valinor can Elven fading be delayed, which is one reason all Elves have no choice but to go to Valinor in the end.
One of the special abilities of the Elven Rings of Power was that they could delay time, and as such were used to prevent fading in Rivendell and Lorien. After the destruction of the One ring the ancient Elves had no possibility to stay in ME, so in the FA the Eldar left for Valinor.
Thank you, my favorite Nazgûl! Then again, this makes me wonder when I'll start to fade, or if it has already began. ...... well, I can still see myself and such....
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:50 AM   #142
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Thank you, my favorite Nazgûl! Then again, this makes me wonder when I'll start to fade, or if it has already began. ...... well, I can still see myself and such....
That is not for long. *ominous music* One day you will look into the mirror and see nothing...
Welcome to the Other Side - a nice company awaits you...
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Old 11-22-2008, 09:02 PM   #143
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Then again, this makes me wonder when I'll start to fade, or if it has already began. ...... well, I can still see myself and such....
I've been warned about that as well - and to make sure to leave for Valinor while there is still time ...
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:13 AM   #144
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As for “faded Elves,” recall Legolas running across the snow in the Redhorn pass, his feet leaving “little imprint in the snow.” Perhaps that was always a characteristic of Elves, and not a product of their “fading.” But the great draw of the Rings of Power was to prevent Elves, and the Noldorin smiths who followed Celebrimbor in particular, from suffering this effect in Middle-earth.

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Minas Morgul was polluted beyond redemption,
I am not sure about the type of this pollution: was it ecological, (like the unwholesome river Morgulduin and the meadows with a tendency to grow poisonous white flowers), or cultural (bed reputation, horrible memories connected with the place), or magical - the residual evil magic that Aragorn and K were unable to overcome. Maybe there were still a lot of wraiths and ghosts haunting the place - for real, not figments of imagination?
All of these, though the “cultural” issue seems least important to me. The flowers of Morgul Vale drove men mad: it is reminiscent to me of stories of people who lie down in the poppy fields during opium harvest: they are overcome by the raw opium, and never awaken again. (I.e., they overdose and die from raw opium in the air beneath the poppies.) Aragorn ordered them to burn those fields on his march to the Morannon: a wise move, as long as the wind was from the West. The place had become a den of evil as vile as Dol Guldur or Barad-dûr: torture, necromancy, and probably its own share of lesser wraiths (although with the end of the One Ring, the lesser wraiths were probably set free). But unlike Dol Guldur and Barad-dûr, which were built in whole or in part using the power of the Rings, Minas Ithil was built by the Númenóreans immediately upon their arrival from the wreck of Númenor, and it did not fall as did Sauron’s other two principal fortresses. The foundations of Barad-dûr survived the War of the Last Alliance because, imbued with Sauron’s power at the same time that he completed the Ring (see Appendix B for the year II 1600), they could not be destroyed; Dol Guldur was not ruined by the mere cessation of the Rings: Appendix B says in part in the entry for March 25 III 3019 that “Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits.”

Back on track: as for Elves and magic and barrow-blades: the Elves did not use “magic” per se: they used the power of Arda, and their own power, and it seemed to Men that it was magic, I believe. Although it is often erroneously attributed to Asimov or Niven, both of whom quoted it, Arthur C Clark first postulated that, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Fëanor was pretty clearly (to my mind) practicing what he would have called “technology,” and even Tolkien says that the Noldor represent the study of technology and science.* That the Elves did not entirely comprehend the ignorance of Men in this regard is reflected in Galadriel’s comment to Sam and Frodo in the chapter “The Mirror of Galadriel”:
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…this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.
The Númenóreans were also capable of “magic,” at least from the viewpoint of the Men of Middle-earth, the Men of Twilight: their ships, their weapons, and their longevity all seemed magic, but their longevity had to do with their acclimating themselves to the Elvish mode of living (I cannot immediately locate the citation, and hope that no one will press to hard for it: the salt-mines are still demanding more and more time), and of course their knowledge had been greatly increased by contact with the Eldar first for their forebears in Beleriand and later in Númenor, where their culture and their knowledge were further enriched by visitors from Tol Eressëa. Besides this, the Elves had centuries, even millennia, to come to understand their world, while Men – and we are Men – are bound to a short span, so that we must learn quickly and pass along what we have found (or think we have found) to those who come after, inevitably losing many things (e.g., just exactly how were those megalithic monuments, from Stonehenge to the pyramids, constructed? or the exquisite Etruscan gold jewelry, which we cannot duplicate even today?) even as we discover other things. So it was that, before the fall of the North Kingdom, some smith(s) of the Dúnedain discovered how to undo the necromantic spells that bound a man to the wraith-world, rendering him vulnerable to being killed outright. The discovery was subsequently lost, the weapons he (or they) manufactured were stored in a barrow infested with a barrow-wight (possibly by the Witch-king himself: the wight was a fierce and safe enough guardian; my personal opinion is that the Dúnedain used the barrows as refuges and strongholds, initially took the weapons there themselves for storage, and were subsequently killed or died and failed to pass along the hiding place until the barrow was infested), where they were found by Bombadil, who recognized them for what they were and equipped the hobbits with them.

An interesting sideline: Bombadil was certainly around during the wars between the North Kingdom and Angmar: he and Goldberry had known the people buried in the mound and were apparently fond of them; Aragorn knew him (why did he not speak up immediately when he heard Bombadil bidding farewell to Frodo and his companions?); and so I think it is likely that he had helped the Dúnedain from time to time over the long years of the Third Age. Yet the Witch-king seems never to have been aware of “old Bombadil,” and in Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader's Companion, the pursuing Nazgûl erroneously attribute the destruction of the barrow-wight to the Ring-bearer, over-estimating his power.

And a final note before I have to leave this most interesting topic and return to the salt mines: if, as we all seem to agree, the Witch-king had been struck by weapons before, and all the Nazgûl feared fire, can we not also agree that the Nazgûl had suffered various physical injuries during their approximately 4,600 years of existence as wraiths? And what was done about this: I mean, were they “healed,” brought back to “health” and made “hale” again? Tolkien says (Letter 212) that,
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Longevity or counterfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.
Gollum healed when injured, but he was not yet wraithified; what about the Nazgûl? And if they could not be injured, why else would they fear Glorfindel or fire?
-|-
* “…the Noldor ... were always vulnerable on the side of ‘science and technology,’ as we should call it”, Unfinished Tales, “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, footnote 8. This is in turn a quotation from Letter 153, where it continues, “…they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gil-galad and Elrond. The particular ‘desire’ of the Eregion Elves – an ‘allegory’ if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices – is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.”
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:06 PM   #145
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Salt mines???

(well, if you could make a delivery to The Pony, i'd be reet thankful..not but that the beer isnt great these days..but we need it for the salted peanuts....)

..........


Well, in a rather shorter manner, Alcuin rather summed up my point.

What "Magic" for lack of a better word, and to refer to what The hobbits call it, or the Rohirrim might say as Dwimmor-crafty ... the Numenoreans, be them Black Numenoreans or of the Faithful, or those that as previously speculated who become wraiths or the WK himself ...

whatever "magic", far sight, senses, perceptions and ability to "sorcery" whether in Runes, "technology" etc etc ... they had.. they inherited from the Elven blood in the Numenorean line -

It is and always has therefore, been Elvish in derivation.


On a side note, also there can be no doubt to my mind that the Nazgul, and wraiths in general were susceptible to damage, injury and certainly the physical form their undead sinews happen to inhabit -

two things - at the Flight to the ford of Bruinen - firstly we are told by Gandalf that they - or at least we think 8 of them had their physical bodies destroyed in the flood - and that shapeless they had as best they could get back to their master...

secondly - "There are few even in Rivendell that can openly ride against the Nine... Glorfindel is one of those" .... "they saw him (at the rise of the River at the fords) as he is on the Other side... as a lord of the firstborn..."

I have no doubt that Glorfindel could cause serious damage to them - and not merely to their physical bodies.

Finally - if a rider was to be de-mounted in Rohan - Gandalf: "Then let Rohan look to its Horses..."

again, evidence were it needed that their Host physical form could be damaged.

What is odd though is that whilst it is needed to sustain the armour and move the mace - when the WK enters the gate of Minas tirith and removes his Helmet - there is invisable his head, bar his crown.

Therefore suggesting a symbiosis of physical host form, and wraith.



P.s - when you deliver the salt... pop in to The Pony for a couple - The Ale is fantastic

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Old 11-24-2008, 05:46 PM   #146
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All of these, though the “cultural” issue seems least important to me. The flowers of Morgul Vale drove men mad: it is reminiscent to me of stories of people who lie down in the poppy fields during opium harvest: they are overcome by the raw opium, and never awaken again. (I.e., they overdose and die from raw opium in the air beneath the poppies.) Aragorn ordered them to burn those fields on his march to the Morannon: a wise move, as long as the wind was from the West.
Yes, I agree about poppies. But it is not difficult to get rid of poppies once and for all, as of any other unwanted plant.

If the Morgul Vale was indeed "twisted" with the power of the Nine Rings, its magic would quickly fade, like Lorien has faded. These two places are so much alike in many ways... and both are unwholesome to humans. Perhaps Time was also warped in the Morgul Vale - to let the wraiths live happily through their stretched years, as Elves lived in Lorien.

Anyway, all that would end with the Rings as would the nazgul and the human wraiths, wraithified by Morgul magic. They would finally go to Mandos.

Yet there was something that remained, something making the Valley and the old city unsalvageable in the Fourth Age: and it might have been the Houseless. Likely they have become free from their bounding spells (like those that kept them bound to stone statues, dead bodies, maybe also possessed living bodies). But free Houseless were dangerous nonetheless.


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So it was that, before the fall of the North Kingdom, some smith(s) of the Dúnedain discovered how to undo the necromantic spells that bound a man to the wraith-world, rendering him vulnerable to being killed outright.
Yes, but counter-spells are "from the same magic book" as Morgul spells, I think. Elves wouldn't be capable of it.

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An interesting sideline: Bombadil was certainly around during the wars between the North Kingdom and Angmar: he and Goldberry had known the people buried in the mound and were apparently fond of them; Aragorn knew him (why did he not speak up immediately when he heard Bombadil bidding farewell to Frodo and his companions?); and so I think it is likely that he had helped the Dúnedain from time to time over the long years of the Third Age. Yet the Witch-king seems never to have been aware of “old Bombadil,” and in Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader's Companion, the pursuing Nazgûl erroneously attribute the destruction of the barrow-wight to the Ring-bearer, over-estimating his power.
That is a very good question. We used to discuss this some years ago, and I thought there was a definite possibility that the WK and Tom had a cup of tea together, talking about good old times.
You see, Tom was a real chatterbox: Goldberry must have been already sick of it. Maggot and the other hobbits were not that entertaining to chat with, because being so young they couldn't contribute much to the talk about Angmar wars. Witchy on the other hand...

Yet, the new info in Reader's Companion suggests otherwise: it seems the WK had no idea about Tom.

How indeed did the WK manage not only to spend a few days on Tom's territory, but also to weave some spells that awoke "all things of Evil' in Tom's forest and upon the Downs? And not even once did Tom make an appearance, or chant a counter-spell, so that the WK remained oblivious to Tom's very existence?


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if, as we all seem to agree, the Witch-king had been struck by weapons before, and all the Nazgûl feared fire, can we not also agree that the Nazgûl had suffered various physical injuries during their approximately 4,600 years of existence as wraiths? And what was done about this: I mean, were they “healed,” brought back to “health” and made “hale” again? Tolkien says (Letter 212) that, Gollum healed when injured, but he was not yet wraithified; what about the Nazgûl? And if they could not be injured, why else would they fear Glorfindel or fire?
Yes, I think they could be healed when injured, but perhaps it involved not only time and medicine but also magic spells. I personally think they needed their Rings to heal: at the end of the TA it meant that, when injured, they had to return to Sauron, as best they could. That is what has happened after the Flood at the Ford. Earlier, when they still had their Rings, they could heal themselves, or the Rings took care of it.

I take it they couldn't be gravely injured by mortals wielding ordinary weapons, but it doesn't mean they couldn't be injured by other things: heavy boulders rolling in the river, or a fall from a height.

The main thing was fire. I believe it had something to do with the Holy Flame of Anor, Flame Imperishable and such concepts.
On the more down-to-Earth note, the most feared creature for the nazgul was obviously Sauron, who was like a demon of fire, his very flesh capable to burn an Elf to cinders, and his Eye was likely burning naked souls in the Spirit World. And if Sauron (for obvious reasons) wouldn't kill one of his nazgul, he might very well have tortured them with fire, if he found them at fault. Wasn't he "conveying threats that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay"? Wasn't the fear of Sauron's wrath almost the only driving force behind the nazgul's bold and desperate actions at the Ford?

As for the Calaquendi Elves, like Glorfindel, who had access to the Spirit World, I don't even think they needed any special weapons, or any weapons at all to harm a nazgul. They could do it by magic, as nazgul's very existence was based on magic. Glorfindel's songs "were stronger songs" and the nazgul had no choice but to flee.
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:15 PM   #147
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...there was something that remained, something making the Valley and the old city unsalvageable in the Fourth Age: and it might have been the Houseless. Likely they have become free from their bounding spells (like those that kept them bound to stone statues, dead bodies, maybe also possessed living bodies). But free Houseless were dangerous nonetheless.
I had not before considered the Houseless Elves. That would have left the Barrow-downs dangerous territory as well.

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Yes, but counter-spells are “from the same magic book” as Morgul spells, I think. Elves wouldn’t be capable of it.
Maybe. I want to think about that for a while: perhaps the Elves would have “aged” or “faded” faster as a result; then again, the Dúnedain were extremely capable themselves, and we cannot rule out that one of them figured out how to “deal” with wraiths, but was either unwilling, unable, or unsuccessful in passing along the information (because of excessive secrecy, and accidental or deliberate death (such as assassination)).

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…not even once did Tom make an appearance, or chant a counter-spell, so that the WK remained oblivious to Tom's very existence?
Tom was not aggressive in any fashion: consider his relationship with the Old Forest: he was not ruler of the Forest, but things in the Forest – like Old Man Willow – responded to his power and authority. He did not threaten Old Man Willow with anything other than mild discipline, not real harm; while the Witch-king was accustomed to meeting hostility with hostility, violence with violent resistance; his presence and mechanizations provoked revulsion, anger, grief, rage, and unremitting sorrow – probably even from the barrow-wights, who were his “allies.” It is likely Tom did not resist the Witch-king: he tripped him up, he left his plans in tangles and knots so that they went inexplicably awry: just bad luck, it would have seemed, and others would have received the credit for his failure, as the Ringbearer did for the destruction of the barrow-wight.

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Yes, I think they could be healed when injured, but perhaps it involved not only time and medicine but also magic...

I take it they couldn't be gravely injured by mortals wielding ordinary weapons, but it doesn't mean they couldn't be injured by other things: heavy boulders rolling in the river, or a fall from a height.

The main thing was fire.
That would explain the comment that they were sent “shapeless” back to Sauron; the other interpretation of that would be that they had no “shape” in the normal world; the problem with that latter interpretation (to which I have always adhered in the past) is that they could still move things and affect people – though fear and even physical damage – without the black clothes that everyone could see.

Fire could operate as fire in both worlds: burns are nasty, particularly painful, and slow to heal; besides that, it scars. If, as you suggest, Sauron tortured them with fire, they could have been particularly sensitive to it; moreover, it would seem that their experience of the “other side” was physically cold (eg, Frodo’s phenomenology of feeling cold both to himself and to others; the barrow-wight’s chant; and the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat about being left “cold” on the “other side”). Perhaps fire was particularly nasty to the Ringwraiths in part because they were literally “cold”, and the normal intense heat of fire was to them even more intensely painful not only physically, but emotionally, psychologically, and even spiritually because of the its connections for them “back” to the normal world.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:34 PM   #148
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That would explain the comment that they were sent “shapeless” back to Sauron; the other interpretation of that would be that they had no “shape” in the normal world; the problem with that latter interpretation (to which I have always adhered in the past) is that they could still move things and affect people – though fear and even physical damage – without the black clothes that everyone could see.
The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle.
Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton – see in HOME 6 or 7), or shapeshift into monstrous birds- vultures. In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! (By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like he did at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom.

But then, Tolkien decided that shape-shifting was mostly restricted to incarnate Maiar, not for Nazgul. After that, he changed the draft for the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.

But Tolkien didn't correct the "Fellowship” and the “Two Towers" accordingly. Not all of it, at least, some things he had missed. So Radagast's: "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's " the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living,” and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception. Yet when Tolkien later returned to the Bruinen ford episode in the “Hunt for the Ring” manuscripts (RC), he made it perfectly clear that none of the nazgul had lost his shape: they lost only their cloaks and boots (not a big issue), and the Witch-King had no difficulty riding his horse unclothed all the way to Mordor.


The worst bug connected with the former shape-shifting concept still remains in TT (the White Rider):
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Gandalf: “For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. […]But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.
Just imagine a happy owner of a new car saying:
“Behold the new shape in which I have been clad”

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Old 12-01-2008, 07:10 PM   #149
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Excellent post, Gordis, really informative. Thanks.

I'm kind of glad he didn't go back and change those bits. They are the parts in which the reader first encounters them, and there's something a bit more creepy about the "shape" ambiguity stuff than the "pure spirit creature of fear" that attacks Minas Tirith.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:05 PM   #150
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“Behold the new shape in which I have been clad”
My, Gordis, is that you? I never imagined a Nazgul like that...
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:06 AM   #151
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My, Gordis, is that you? I never imagined a Nazgul like that...
No, Alcuin, it is not me- just a random picture from the net. I don't look like that at all and I don't have a new car (sigh).
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:38 PM   #152
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In order to return to the topic about the blades: Come to think of it, there could have been a conspiracy of Wraiths: the "first" Nazgul destroyed, and then Sauron would have given (forced?) their Rings to other men? So all in all, in the Pelennor Fields we woulda had His Wraithy Highness Withcking the 3rd or so...

Just kidding of course.

Good points, everyone. Of Tom: I think he (")knew(") the hobbits would come in 3018, and could not reveal his safe haven/existence/dwelling to evil before that.

And BB- may I ask why are you writing so... difficultly? I mean, it's difficult to read, cause it feels like the thoughts on the text are not finished, and are suddenly just brought to an abrupt halt. I don't know if others find this difficult, but I do...
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:36 PM   #153
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Well, both Elrond and Gandalf seemed to know him quite well.
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Old 12-07-2008, 01:45 PM   #154
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know whom?
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:52 PM   #155
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know whom?
Um, Tom Bombadil.
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Old 12-15-2008, 07:24 AM   #156
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In order to return to the topic about the blades: Come to think of it, there could have been a conspiracy of Wraiths: the "first" Nazgul destroyed, and then Sauron would have given (forced?) their Rings to other men? So all in all, in the Pelennor Fields we woulda had His Wraithy Highness Withcking the 3rd or so...
Actually there is no evidence that the Third Age nazgul are not the same guys who have been originally chosen by Sauron back in the mid-Second-Age. And while to replace a slain nazgul would have been theoretically possible in the Second Age, it was already impossible in the Third Age, while Sauron had no Ruling Ring, and thus had no way to corrupt and enslave new bearers of the Nine.

This means that for an Age and a half, out of the Nine, not a single one had been slain - which is a marvel in itself. Hardly any random group of, say, Elves could have shown such excellent survival rate.
So either the nazgul were indeed very hard to kill and could recover from almost any wound, or they were extremely cautious - or (most likely) both.


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So great was the might and splendour of the Númenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him; and Sauron humbled himself, doing homage, and craving pardon.-App. A
Now what about the nazgul? Were they also among those who "deserted" their Master? -Unlikely, considering the mind-control he was supposed to have over them. But perhaps they showed such reluctance and apprehension that Sauron just abandoned the matter as hopeless?

And of course there is the question of the absence of the Nine at Orodruin. None intervened when their Lord and Master was being hacked to pieces by Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur.
Were they perhaps sitting nearby, safe in their invisibility, placing bets?

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Old 12-15-2008, 10:15 PM   #157
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I’ve thought about that. I think that Sauron was “making a break for it” – he was headed to Orodruin, perhaps to induce an eruption from the volcano that he hoped to use to destroy his enemies. Whatever his purposes, he was almost certainly headed to the Sammath Naur.

There are several armies around Barad-dûr at this point: Gil-galad and his Elves, Thranduil son of Oropher and his Elves, the Númenóreans, and the Dwarves. (And of course, the Eagles, who always appear the end of every battle.) In addition, there may have been other Men in alliance with the Dúnedain: the Northmen and the Men of Rhovanion, ancestors of the Beornings, the Rohirrim, and the Men of Dale.

I think that the only explanation is that Sauron left Barad-dûr not alone, but with a personal guard. Where were the Nazgûl? Some of them could have been set to other tasks: leading forces to break the siege, trying to raise troops in the East and South, rallying and leading the Black Númenóreans (a task for the Witch-king and the other two Númenórean Ringwraiths), etc. But at least some of them must have been in the personal guard, I think.

Now Sauron was very powerful, and Tolkien tells us in Letters that he should be thought of as “very terrible.” He had been re-embodied for at most 138 years, the period between the ruin of Númenor when his body was destroyed and the battle on Orodruin. He should have been able to fight quite effectively.

His bodyguard, however, faced the best of the Dúnedain and the Eldar. His fortress must have been closely invested (i.e., the Last Alliance must have laid it siege very close to the fortress, trying to undermine it, or go through or over its walls). This probably means that there was yet another part of the force of the Last Alliance facing the outside, away from Barad-dûr, to prevent any attempts to lift the siege.

Once Sauron broke out of the fortress, he had to move about 25 miles in a direct line to Sammath Naur. RotK tells us that the path up the side of the mountain was a switchback path; of course, Sauron was in a bit of a hurry, and might have neglected to follow any switchback path. That would have made it somewhat harder for his guard to follow him; but whether they could follow or not, Sauron’s personal guard must be first peeled away in order to get to him: that’s the purpose of having a personal guard.

The implication is, I think, that by the time the battle had made its way onto the slopes of the volcano, only Sauron was left from his side; and on the other side, there were Gil-galad, Elrond, C*rdan, Elendil, and Isildur. The rest – Sauron’s personal guard and all the other people fighting them – were left behind. Whether the guard was isolated, destroyed, or outrun by Sauron is probably not important.

Nazgûl are pretty tough critters, but Aragorn says that their primary power is fear, and no doubt, they were all in possession of their own Rings. Now, the power of fear is pretty tremendous; but fear needs something to feed upon, and an army of Faithful Dúnedain and Eldar, reinforced by allies at a distance, are not likely to offer much for fear to feed upon: the Eldar were not afraid of the Nazgûl, and the Dúnedain, bucked up by the Elven allies and fired up for victory, were unlikely to hold back, either. (Aragorn was not afraid of them, and apparently neither was Eärnur, whose horse bolted, but not his spirit. The text indicates that Boromir I, Steward of Minas Tirith and ancestor of Boromir in LotR, was not afraid of them either, and Faramir collapsed only because of Black Breath in connection with physical and emotional exhaustion in combination with an arrow wound.)

Any Nazgûl in Sauron’s personal guard would have been cut down or (once Sauron was vanquished) forced to try to escape literally unseen.

Last edited by Alcuin : 12-15-2008 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 12-16-2008, 10:23 AM   #158
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... (And of course, the Eagles, who always appear the end of every battle.) ...
In Middle earth the expression.. "I ain't over till the Fat lady sings" never caught on for this very reason...

Rumours from Khazad Dum, tell of many cunning works of the Dwarves sent as presents to the Lord of the Eagles.

Sadly these alarm clocks, never caught on with the Eagles, ..nor the wonderfully silky Diaries sent by the Elves.

As to the Memo pads sent by the Dunedain...
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:50 AM   #159
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I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.

When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:10 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.

When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?
Yep.

Sorry that I always jump into conclusions, but I do believe that they felt rather lost 1 and vengeful 2, not to mention fatigued3.(?) 1 2 3
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