U.S. election races...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Ah hector, the caring face of Republicanism.

The US spends the most per head of population on health care and yet it ranks about 39th on the WHO table of health service quality. The reason? The very large minority of (poor) people who have no health insurance.

And one of the many outcomes of this setup precisely what hector says would happen under a universal system: disease mongering. The US system rewards over-intervention, particularly towards the "needs" of wealthy groups.

So, you've got treatments for "Social Anxiety Disorder" being peddled directly to wealthy consumers on their TV screens. Meanwhile, poor people are dying of diabetes.

And of course, HillaryCare is going to make sure nobody will ever have to get an owie ever again...or to ever think for themselves ever again, for that matter.

I'm for the diabetics having healthcare, I am for affordable healthcare, but I am not for an enforced healthcare. It's not a subject I know that well, but I do know that TennCare down here was so abused, the (Democrat) Guv'ner scrapped it, and was flailed for it, basically. I mean, so much money was lost by the abusers of the system that it was going to go kaput anyways not far down the road. I suppose there were enough stories about the "cancer patient" that got snubbed by TennCare, but the majority of people who still needed it, still got it.
One lousy visit for a cold, and the state had to pay the doctor TONS. Universal Healthcare is not a fairyland dream which the evil Republicans refuse to get high on, it's a quagmire issue.

[The Gaffer]

So it didn't work in Tennessee, so it's not going to work at all?

Seems to work here.

The biggest obstacle will be getting the doctors on board. Because public health care systems are inherently more efficient than private systems, the doctors are going to have to sacrifice a Ferrarri or two to make it work.

Nye Bevan, the architect of the UK National Health Service, famously quipped that he had to "stuff their mouths with gold" to get them to sign up to the NHS in 1948.

What you need to is build it from the bottom up, targeting the poorest first. It doesn't have to be high-tech; e.g. just making sure that hypertensives get and take their medication can save millions of lives in the US over the next few years (around 2/3s of Americans with hypertension do not have it adequately controlled, CDC, 2002).

EDIT: found a really educated article about it in the US context: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Prescripti...2564042&page=1
Bottom lines:
- the larger the "insurance" pool, the fairer the health care
- private insurance means that well people are better covered than sick people, the opposite of what is needed from a health care system
- employers are having to foot too much of the bill
- this bill will continue to rise
- there is no rational cost-effectiveness calculation applied to new health care technologies

I would add that this latter point means that doctors and pharma end up in bed together. The pharmas come up with expensive new stuff, the doctors endorse it, and they all get Ferrarris.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

So it didn't work in Tennessee, so it's not going to work at all?

Tennessee is a very populated state, thank you very much. It's not a bad model as far as that goes. My point was that it isn't as simple as just making sure everyone has healthcare. The system abusers cost the program lots of money, and if there is widespread abuse of it, it's all going to go down the toilet. That's not an argument to not have healthcare, thats an argument against having everyone on healthcare.

Seems to work here.

Well, that's not my country is it? Besides, you guys have pretty good Gov't regulation I hope, that or you just don't mind or don't care if there is any abuse of the system?

I would add that this latter point means that doctors and pharma end up in bed together. The pharmas come up with expensive new stuff, the doctors endorse it, and they all get Ferrarris.

...to add to their already large collection of Ferraris.

[hectorberlioz]

I do not want Newt Gingrich to run for president. No way.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I do not want Newt Gingrich to run for president. No way.

Any thoughts on Mike Huckabee (Arkansas Governor)?

Don't know much about him, except that he's strongly pro-life, but more moderate on issues like immigration and minmum-wage; maybe a real compassionate conservative.

And he lost 110 pounds, which, given my struggles to lose twenty, gives me great repect for his willpower

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Tennessee is a very populated state, thank you very much. It's not a bad model as far as that goes.

I'm sure it is, that's not the point. In order to generalise from one particular policy experience to everything else one would have to be pretty sure that a) the program being tested was the same program as would be used elsewhere and b) the circumstances it was being tested in were reflective of the circumstances in which it would be used elsewhere.

Don't know if you're a gambling man, but I'd give 10-1 that neither of these criteria are fulfilled in this case.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

My point was that it isn't as simple as just making sure everyone has healthcare. The system abusers cost the program lots of money, and if there is widespread abuse of it, it's all going to go down the toilet. That's not an argument to not have healthcare, thats an argument against having everyone on healthcare.


Well, that's not my country is it? Besides, you guys have pretty good Gov't regulation I hope, that or you just don't mind or don't care if there is any abuse of the system?

Not being aware of the details of the now-infamous Tennessee experience, I can't really comment, other than to say for the reasons given above, that it almost certainly is NOT an argument against having everyone on health care.

However, in general terms, we can say that any welfare system will be subject to some sort of "abuse", in the sense of "undeserving" people exploiting it. A good example is doctors getting bribed to endorse new, expensive and unproven treatments. Not to mention people being left out of the health care system by accident of birth or personal financial circumstances, such as where your employer lays you off because it's cheaper to import from China, you lose your insurance and your kid gets diabetes.

Different sorts of abuse, I would guess, from the ones you are thinking of, but abuses of the system nevertheless.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Any thoughts on Mike Huckabee (Arkansas Governor)?

Don't know much about him, except that he's strongly pro-life, but more moderate on issues like immigration and minmum-wage; maybe a real compassionate conservative.

And he lost 110 pounds, which, given my struggles to lose twenty, gives me great repect for his willpower

Thank you GM, for reminding me to look him up and read a bit about him. I have liked what I've heard do far.

EDIT: Well, I'd say he really burned it off!


http://www.theoaklandpress.com/image...6/7496_512.jpg

[Nurvingiel]

Okay, Jeb Bush isn't really going to run for president (later), but this comic is still funny.

http://nightgig.com/argh/droop/index...wDate=20031121

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Okay, Jeb Bush isn't really going to run for president (later), but this comic is still funny.

http://nightgig.com/argh/droop/index...wDate=20031121

That's liberal humour? ....

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

That's liberal humour? ....

You may be doing humour a disservice by calling that rather oddly smug, bitter cartoonists work "humour".

[hectorberlioz]

It was pretty lousy wasn't it?


btw, I guess Kerry is feeling pretty down, eh? The poor guy, with that botched joke of his, he'll never be able to tell a joke ever again.

[The Gaffer]

Hey, you guys learned how to spell "humour"!!

Now try: colour

Here's some proper "liberal" humour:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...947333,00.html

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hey, you guys learned how to spell "humour"!!

Now try: colour

Here's some proper "liberal" humour:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...947333,00.html

I've ALWAYS preferred to include that extra U...

very visual cartoon

the best conservative humour is exemplified in Mallard Fillmore (check out the archives link below too)
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/str...0/mallard1.asp

and this page especially
http://jewishworldreview.com/strips/...lard052305.asp

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hey, you guys learned how to spell "humour"!!

Colour, humour, honour, favour, armour; how else WOULD one spell it?
Now try: colour

Here's some proper "liberal" humour:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...947333,00.html

Humour, colour, favour, honour, armour; how else WOULD you spell it?

[The Gaffer]

Blimey, live and learn.

Like the Mallard strip, Hector.

[hectorberlioz]

Bill Frist announced he won't be running for President in '08. Something of a relief...but I'm sure he's not feeling to happy about giving up his Senate seat

[hectorberlioz]

Huckabee-Brownback 2008!


A word about party identification: I've liked to say I'm independent, but I don't see myself voting anything other than Republican soon, so I'll not pretend....


EDIT:

Holy Cow! Didn't see THIS coming!

"Despite his strong appeal among Protestant evangelicals and his Methodist roots, Brownback converted to Roman Catholicism in 2002 with the support of Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., another prominent social conservative. He says his faith guides his opposition to abortion, gay marriage and embryonic stem cell research."

http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/...341.shtml?s=ic

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Huckabee-Brownback 2008!


A word about party identification: I've liked to say I'm independent, but I don't see myself voting anything other than Republican soon, so I'll not pretend....


EDIT:

Holy Cow! Didn't see THIS coming!

"Despite his strong appeal among Protestant evangelicals and his Methodist roots, Brownback converted to Roman Catholicism in 2002 with the support of Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., another prominent social conservative. He says his faith guides his opposition to abortion, gay marriage and embryonic stem cell research."

http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/...341.shtml?s=ic

Brownbacks catholic?? Geez I live in Kansas and I didn't even know that oh well, I don't see him going very far he has no name recognition. Hes a good guy though as that article mentions he promised to not seek senate reelection after two terms.

[hectorberlioz]

I'm supporting him and Mike Huckabee for a ticket....I really hope he doesn't let McCain get all the glory...

It's a funny thing, because looking at him I said "He looks Catholic", but then I thought "Bah, he's from Kansas, he's probably Methodist".

I was partially right


I'll have to let all my friends know about him so they can support him too...I will NOT let him not run


READ THIS:

http://www.asiasource.org/news/speci.../brownback.cfm

Given that some American political analysts have commented on the prejudice against Catholics in the US (confirmed perhaps by the fact that there has only ever been one Catholic president, namely JFK), do you not view your recent conversion to Catholicism through Opus Dei as politically risky?

It might be but I don't make those sort of decisions based on politics. I felt a deep calling to do it. I studied for four years considering it and I really decided it was the right thing to do. And if the political consequences are negative, so be it. To me, I think politics are important but your soul lasts forever. So, you know, you make those decisions on what you think is right or wrong and then you just go forward.

[GreyMouser]

Catholic probably won't hurt him, but Opus Dei might-

"hey, honey, didn't we see that in the Da Vinci Code?"